Anyone Ever Bought a wire edm from China?

[Henryff]

I'm currently exploring the option of purchasing a Wire Edm from China, and I was wondering if any of you have had experience with this. My friend told me that Chinese wire EDM machines are cheap and fast. I'm curious to know if any of you have experience with these machines?

 

[burdickjp]

The metal additive manufacturing industry has been using Chinese reciprocating molybdenum wire EDMs for about 5 or 6 years now. They're inexpensive, fast, have a large operating volume and don't require full submersion to operate. They also produce a substantially larger kerf and do not cut as accurately as other wire EDM technologies.

I think there's a few companies which keep repair and replacement parts on hand in the US and provide service. None of them are names I was familiar with. Please share back as you're learning.

 

[implmex]

Hi Henryff:
What are you hoping to cut with one of these wires from China?
As burdickjp remarked there are a few brands of reciprocating moly wire machines suitable for cutoff operations but not much else.
On these the moly wire runs from one drum to another and then back for as many times as it takes to wear out the wire, typically for many cycles.
When you say "Fast and Cheap" that is the machine style I presume you mean.

The other style is a conventional wire EDM suitable for making more shapes than just a cutoff.
It sacrifices a brass wire after using it just once.
It can tilt the wire and it can cut very accurately.

There are Chinese models...I have one from Taiwan, and the brand name is CHMER.
They are Chevys, not Cadillacs, but I can make anything you can make on a high end machine... I just can't make it quite as accurately.
I can cut a profile to within 0.0005" easily.
I can cut it within 0.0002" with care.
I can't cut it within 0.00005" which is what the best wires claim to be able to do.

My machine cost between a third and a half of what a top of the line Swiss, or Japanese machine of the same capacity would cost.
I've owned it since 2011 and it's been bulletproof.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[Henryff]

The metal additive manufacturing industry has been using Chinese reciprocating molybdenum wire EDMs for about 5 or 6 years now. They're inexpensive, fast, have a large operating volume and don't require full submersion to operate. They also produce a substantially larger kerf and do not cut as accurately as other wire EDM technologies.

I think there's a few companies which keep repair and replacement parts on hand in the US and provide service. None of them are names I was familiar with. Please share back as you're learning.

Hi Henryff:
What are you hoping to cut with one of these wires from China?
As burdickjp remarked there are a few brands of reciprocating moly wire machines suitable for cutoff operations but not much else.
On these the moly wire runs from one drum to another and then back for as many times as it takes to wear out the wire, typically for many cycles.
When you say "Fast and Cheap" that is the machine style I presume you mean.

The other style is a conventional wire EDM suitable for making more shapes than just a cutoff.
It sacrifices a brass wire after using it just once.
It can tilt the wire and it can cut very accurately.

There are Chinese models...I have one from Taiwan, and the brand name is CHMER.
They are Chevys, not Cadillacs, but I can make anything you can make on a high end machine... I just can't make it quite as accurately.
I can cut a profile to within 0.0005" easily.
I can cut it within 0.0002" with care.
I can't cut it within 0.00005" which is what the best wires claim to be able to do.

My machine cost between a third and a half of what a top of the line Swiss, or Japanese machine of the same capacity would cost.
I've owned it since 2011 and it's been bulletproof.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Thanks to both Burdickjp and Implmex. I heard new machines cost between $15,000 to $30,000, with a speed of 7000 sq mm per hour, roughness up to 0.8µm, capable of cutting profiles within 10µm (about 0.0003''), and a processing range up to 1 meter. What do you think?

 

[implmex]

Hi again Henryff:
7000 square mm per hour is actually not very fast...it's only 10.85 square inches per hour.
The fastest conventional wires were claiming 35 square inches per hour last time I looked.

Makino markets a wire EDM (the U6 HEAT) that they claim is the fastest on the market but they are coy about how fast that actually is.
My machine, under ideal conditions will cut at about 15 square inches per hour in 1" thick hard D2 (the standard for the test)
I don't normally optimize for speed so I accept around 10 square inches per hour and get fewer wire breaks and better first pass accuracy.

I paid a hundred grand for a machine that can accept a block that's 10" x 14" x 7" (but it's gotta be aluminum at that size...it can't handle the weight of a steel block that big).
That was in 2011.
I'm guessing a U6 is going to be at least double that price.

At the price you've been quoted, I'd be worried about which corners were cut to give you that price.
Wires are complex machines and if any one bit goes south the whole gadget stops working, so they're kinda intolerant to crappy manufacture.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[burdickjp]

I'd compare to a used machine, service, and parts support from the manufacturer. A used AgieCharmilles, Mitsubishi, or Sodick will come with the ability to get parts and service quickly. Wire EDM has some surprising consumables outside of wire, and service. I'd view those as more important than the capital cost of the machine. A properly maintained wire EDM machine will run forever, there's really no load and wear on the motion system compared to something like a milling machine.

 

[Henryff]

7000 square mm per hour is actually not very fast...it's only 10.85 square inches per hour.
The fastest conventional wires were claiming 35 square inches per hour last time I looked.

Hi implmex,
I reached out to my friend regarding the machine speed. He mentioned that the 7000 square mm per hour is more like the lower limit during regular customer orders. However, when it comes to conducting a test, the speed can go beyond 13000 square mm per hour(20 square inches per hour).

 

[Henryff]

At the price you've been quoted, I'd be worried about which corners were cut to give you that price.

Are you suggesting that the price is too low for a wire EDM machine with the mentioned features?

 

[Henryff]

I'd compare to a used machine, service, and parts support from the manufacturer. A used AgieCharmilles, Mitsubishi, or Sodick will come with the ability to get parts and service quickly.

Hi burdickjp
Indeed, you can receive good support from the main manufacturer. Could you provide any information on the pricing and features of the used machines they offer? I have no idea about those. Thank you.

 

[implmex]

Hi again Henryff:
You wrote:
"Are you suggesting that the price is too low for a wire EDM machine with the mentioned features?"

Yes, that is what I am saying.
A wire EDM has performance requirements you can't get around for long and all of them cost money.

Pick something as boring as the high pressure pumps you need to flush with.
The most popular brand is Grundfos (or was at least).
These are highly rated well engineered and built Danish pumps and they are expensive...just try to replace or even fix one and you'll see.
You can put in a cheaper pump...of course you can.
But if it dies, the whole machine dies and the pumps in a wire EDM work hard all the time and are crucial.

Another example is the motion control and the mechanicals needed to support it, so linear rails and servo motors and drives and ballscrews.
You need motion control within microns...not only for the accuracy of the thing you make, but also to control the very small spark gaps you must maintain consistently to keep the process working.
Cheap out on these components and you cannot work as accurately nor can you burn to a fine finish...your motion control isn't good enough.

If the machine dies or won't work properly and you depend on it to make your production schedule you have a big problem.

There are many subsystems in a wire EDM and all of them are important in the same way the pumps and motion control system are.

So you can build a cheaper version but at the risk it won't work for long or won't work well at all.

I bought a used Sodick A320 as my first machine.
I bought it from a reputable dealer who rebuilt it and sold it to me for roughly 4 times what I could buy the same vintage and brand off EBay.
They fully supported it...no complaints there.

But I still had to get rid of it and buy something different because it just wasn't up to it anymore...I'd get subsystem failures, and board failures and processor failures...each had me down for up to a month and my customers were getting royally pissed.

So I traded it in and dropped 3 times the money the old Sodick had cost, just to get better reliability, and it was worth every penny.
In addition, support (including maintenance and repair support) was a phone call away.
As I said in a previous post, I paid over a hundred grand for it...you are proposing to pay less than half what my old beater Sodick cost, and I say (with complete confidence) that when (not if) things go south you will regret it if you propose to integrate it into your production and make money with it.

No support means you have to fix it yourself.
No replacement boards means you have to find someone to do board level repairs or do them yourself...good luck with that.
No replacement parts means you need a whole machine shop just to build a new wire drive or whatever as soon as yours fails.

If you fall for the bullshit that these import dealers spin you about their service to make the sale, you will find out the hard way that you're on your own.

So caveat emptor.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[???]

I ran a reciprocating wire Chinese machine and can verify a few things.

The finish is terrible.
They do go down and when they do it was a mission to get quick support and repair.
Accuracy is just okay so it really depends on what type of work you are doing.
If you’re punching holes in I beams with large clearances between punch and die they are fine or if your stamping is being tumbled.

I’ve seen tons of them being used in Chinese tool rooms as precision cut off saws. I have a friend running a factory in China who offered me a container load of secondhand ones for free. I think this speaks volumes as the Chinese view them as a low quality consumable machine.

Having said all this I know some people have made serious money using them on the right work. But would I buy one, definitely not after my experience with them.

 

[Henryff]

Hi again Henryff:
You wrote:
"Are you suggesting that the price is too low for a wire EDM machine with the mentioned features?"

Yes, that is what I am saying.
A wire EDM has performance requirements you can't get around for long and all of them cost money.

Pick something as boring as the high pressure pumps you need to flush with.
The most popular brand is Grundfos (or was at least).
These are highly rated well engineered and built Danish pumps and they are expensive...just try to replace or even fix one and you'll see.
You can put in a cheaper pump...of course you can.
But if it dies, the whole machine dies and the pumps in a wire EDM work hard all the time and are crucial.

Another example is the motion control and the mechanicals needed to support it, so linear rails and servo motors and drives and ballscrews.
You need motion control within microns...not only for the accuracy of the thing you make, but also to control the very small spark gaps you must maintain consistently to keep the process working.
Cheap out on these components and you cannot work as accurately nor can you burn to a fine finish...your motion control isn't good enough.

If the machine dies or won't work properly and you depend on it to make your production schedule you have a big problem.

There are many subsystems in a wire EDM and all of them are important in the same way the pumps and motion control system are.

So you can build a cheaper version but at the risk it won't work for long or won't work well at all.

I bought a used Sodick A320 as my first machine.
I bought it from a reputable dealer who rebuilt it and sold it to me for roughly 4 times what I could buy the same vintage and brand off EBay.
They fully supported it...no complaints there.

But I still had to get rid of it and buy something different because it just wasn't up to it anymore...I'd get subsystem failures, and board failures and processor failures...each had me down for up to a month and my customers were getting royally pissed.

So I traded it in and dropped 3 times the money the old Sodick had cost, just to get better reliability, and it was worth every penny.
In addition, support (including maintenance and repair support) was a phone call away.
As I said in a previous post, I paid over a hundred grand for it...you are proposing to pay less than half what my old beater Sodick cost, and I say (with complete confidence) that when (not if) things go south you will regret it if you propose to integrate it into your production and make money with it.

No support means you have to fix it yourself.
No replacement boards means you have to find someone to do board level repairs or do them yourself...good luck with that.
No replacement parts means you need a whole machine shop just to build a new wire drive or whatever as soon as yours fails.

If you fall for the bullshit that these import dealers spin you about their service to make the sale, you will find out the hard way that you're on your own.

So caveat emptor.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Hi implmex,
Thanks for pointing those out. My friend mentioned that the factory offers guarantees on certain features, and they can even include these assurances in the contract. For instance, they assure a good level of speed, accuracy, and roughness for several years, which is quite convincing. What are your thoughts on these guarantees?

Accounting to my friend, the reason the price seems low is likely due to China's cost advantages in terms of cheap labor force and raw materials. But, of course, it's also influenced by the fact that their technology may not be directly comparable to globally renowned brands.

The primary concern revolves around support. Given that they are based in China, I might not receive the same level of service as customers in their region. I'm currently inquiring about the kind of service they can provide in the US. They seem to have some solutions, but I'm not entirely sure about them at the moment.

 

[Henryff]

I ran a reciprocating wire Chinese machine and can verify a few things.

The finish is terrible.
They do go down and when they do it was a mission to get quick support and repair.
Accuracy is just okay so it really depends on what type of work you are doing.
If you’re punching holes in I beams with large clearances between punch and die they are fine or if your stamping is being tumbled.

I’ve seen tons of them being used in Chinese tool rooms as precision cut off saws. I have a friend running a factory in China who offered me a container load of secondhand ones for free. I think this speaks volumes as the Chinese view them as a low quality consumable machine.

Having said all this I know some people have made serious money using them on the right work. But would I buy one, definitely not after my experience with them.

Hi,
Thank you so much for noticing those. Would you mind sharing the brand of the machine you bought? I hope it's not the same one my friend suggested to me. Does the factory claim similar features to the ones I mentioned above?

 

[???]

Hi,
Thank you so much for noticing those. Would you mind sharing the brand of the machine you bought? I hope it's not the same one my friend suggested to me. Does the factory claim similar features to the ones I mentioned above?

This was a long time ago so I can’t remember the brand. It had a PC based controller. There were a lot of issues around erosion on the guide rollers and wire breakage. As I said the thing that concerns me is that the Chinese themselves consider these to be low quality. Saying this we made a ton of money off it. I made small progression die’s stamping out a bee, swan and duck that were fittings for the fashion trade. We ran about 250 000 of each in a high speed press in a few days. They were then gold plated and sold for about a buck each. Eventually the business was killed by cheap Chinese imports. I’ve still got the electrode for the bee in my toolbox. I’ll take a picture of it and post it so you can see the finish.

 

[implmex]

Hi again Henryff:
Here is the reality as I've experienced it.
The high end Charmilles machines I have used, broke down too, and when they did the cost to fix them was nuts.
They were bought new (I was an employee at the time so not my circus, not my monkeys)
I remember a monitor in particular costing in the 8 grand neighbourhood, but other things were just as nuts.
We called the phenomenon "Swiss Rape" at the time.

I bought the Sodick (1996 model so about the same vintage) in 2008 and although it was refurbished by a reputable and knowledgeable company (EDM Network in Illinois) it was tired and crapped out quite often.
Prices were FAR more reasonable and I replaced the hard drive, the W axis board, the powder clutch, the conductivity probe the pinch rollers, the lower drive bearings, the discharge cables and a bunch of other stuff...not all of them normal consumables.

I traded in the Sodick for a brand new CHMER in 2011 and I've had very few problems with it, even though it's now about as old as the Sodick was when I bought it.
The problems have been nuisances...cheapo Chinese air hoses that decomposed and split after about 8 years, swivel couplings for high pressure water to the upper head that wore out after a year, knobs with flash on them from the crappy molds they were made in that had to be dismounted from the machine and filed smooth so I wouldn't cut myself on them.

But even though it's a Taiwanese machine, it's built like a tank, but it's also very basic...no collision detection sensors for example, so if you drop a slug wrong, it will beat the crap out of the machine and won't stop for anything.

So I too, have a Chinese (well, Taiwanese) machine.
It's been good to me...better than the Japanese machine and better than the Swiss machine I was around when I was an employee.

But you will have troubles with whatever you buy IMO...sooner or later they will stop working.
Service is key...you MUST have a reliable way to solve your problem when the screen stays black as you try to power it up, unless it's a hobby and you don't have to care.

You may take your chances however you prefer...I did when I bought every single machine in my stable, whether it was new or used, domestic or foreign.

Some have shitty luck with very expensive gear...look at the dismal history of DMG machines in recent years...absolutely atrocious service so far as I can tell from the stories I hear.
High end, premium priced machines, and still down for months while those arrogant cocksuckers from DMG never do get their thumbs out of their asses and fix the fuckers.

There are enough of those kinds of stories around that I would never take a chance on a DMG machine...no matter how good the deal.
I would feel that way even though I've never owned one and never had personal experience of one and the old manual Deckel machines that the company was founded on were absolutely delightful machines to run...beautifully made and gorgeous pieces of art to be proud of if you could afford to have one.

You may get lucky...you may be thrilled with what you buy from China...I am very happy with my cheapo Taiwanese machine, and I've put a ton of work through it and made good coin.
But EDM Network stands behind it, and I had history with them before I splashed the cash so I felt it to be a worthwhile gamble and I turned out to be right...thank God!

Greasy reassurances from some Fly by Night importer with a PO box office address and no inventory would worry me...every one of the machines I was ever around broke eventually in some way...the service was crucial.

IMO shitty cheapo bearings will die before good ones will on average, so if your machine is built with shitty bearings to make a price point, the odds are against you, and if you can't even source replacements you're fucked.

So buy as the mood moves you...you are taking a gamble no matter what you pick.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[Nmbmxer]

Sounds to me like Henryff is shilling Chinese EDM machines...

 

[implmex]

Hi Nmbmxer:
I think he just got a notion into his head that he wants a wire, he saw a cheapo one that he can afford, and now he can't get it back out of his head so he's looking for a way to justify it.

He'll do what he's gonna do...hopefully he gets lucky and it works out well for him.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[Henryff]

Hi again Henryff:
Here is the reality as I've experienced it.
The high end Charmilles machines I have used, broke down too, and when they did the cost to fix them was nuts.
They were bought new (I was an employee at the time so not my circus, not my monkeys)
I remember a monitor in particular costing in the 8 grand neighbourhood, but other things were just as nuts.
We called the phenomenon "Swiss Rape" at the time.

I bought the Sodick (1996 model so about the same vintage) in 2008 and although it was refurbished by a reputable and knowledgeable company (EDM Network in Illinois) it was tired and crapped out quite often.
Prices were FAR more reasonable and I replaced the hard drive, the W axis board, the powder clutch, the conductivity probe the pinch rollers, the lower drive bearings, the discharge cables and a bunch of other stuff...not all of them normal consumables.

I traded in the Sodick for a brand new CHMER in 2011 and I've had very few problems with it, even though it's now about as old as the Sodick was when I bought it.
The problems have been nuisances...cheapo Chinese air hoses that decomposed and split after about 8 years, swivel couplings for high pressure water to the upper head that wore out after a year, knobs with flash on them from the crappy molds they were made in that had to be dismounted from the machine and filed smooth so I wouldn't cut myself on them.

But even though it's a Taiwanese machine, it's built like a tank, but it's also very basic...no collision detection sensors for example, so if you drop a slug wrong, it will beat the crap out of the machine and won't stop for anything.

So I too, have a Chinese (well, Taiwanese) machine.
It's been good to me...better than the Japanese machine and better than the Swiss machine I was around when I was an employee.

But you will have troubles with whatever you buy IMO...sooner or later they will stop working.
Service is key...you MUST have a reliable way to solve your problem when the screen stays black as you try to power it up, unless it's a hobby and you don't have to care.

You may take your chances however you prefer...I did when I bought every single machine in my stable, whether it was new or used, domestic or foreign.

Some have shitty luck with very expensive gear...look at the dismal history of DMG machines in recent years...absolutely atrocious service so far as I can tell from the stories I hear.
High end, premium priced machines, and still down for months while those arrogant cocksuckers from DMG never do get their thumbs out of their asses and fix the fuckers.

There are enough of those kinds of stories around that I would never take a chance on a DMG machine...no matter how good the deal.
I would feel that way even though I've never owned one and never had personal experience of one and the old manual Deckel machines that the company was founded on were absolutely delightful machines to run...beautifully made and gorgeous pieces of art to be proud of if you could afford to have one.

You may get lucky...you may be thrilled with what you buy from China...I am very happy with my cheapo Taiwanese machine, and I've put a ton of work through it and made good coin.
But EDM Network stands behind it, and I had history with them before I splashed the cash so I felt it to be a worthwhile gamble and I turned out to be right...thank God!

Greasy reassurances from some Fly by Night importer with a PO box office address and no inventory would worry me...every one of the machines I was ever around broke eventually in some way...the service was crucial.

IMO shitty cheapo bearings will die before good ones will on average, so if your machine is built with shitty bearings to make a price point, the odds are against you, and if you can't even source replacements you're fucked.

So buy as the mood moves you...you are taking a gamble no matter what you pick.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Hi implmex,
I truly appreciate your advice. I'll thoroughly discuss the details with the factory and would only consider making a deal when they provide a reasonable solution for the service aspect. Thank you again!

 

[Minutemanmachine]

I'm currently exploring the option of purchasing a Wire Edm from China, and I was wondering if any of you have had experience with this. My friend told me that Chinese wire EDM machines are cheap and fast. I'm curious to know if any of you have experience with these machines?

Hi Henryff
Buyer beware
In some cases that wire can produce toxic gases , look up the type of material you are going to cut with that wire. Those machines usually do not cut under water just flushing thru the upper and lower heads so those gases become airborne. That wire is hard to cut and thread so if the wire breaks it’s difficult to repair to get machining again you may want to look at Sodick machines they are not as expensive as people think . They used brass coated wire which is fast cutting . Can cut submerged or open flush and it’s automatic threaded works really well so unmanned operation. Machines come with a10 year positioning and accuracy guarantee that’s why you can’t find a fairly new used one .

Good luck