Citizen Cincom F16 help needed

[Desmato]

I have an 85-ish F16 and am having an issue with the rear turret. It will unlock the shotpin, move to the new tool, but NOT put the shotpin back in. Doesn't even try, from what I can tell. I can manually push the pin back in and continue working, but ...
Does anyone have info on the diagnostic path I need to take ? I have the manuals, but there is nothing about the steps the machine takes when changing tools nor how to t-shoot.

The front turret works fine

Todd

 

[Ox]

We have a resident that should be able to help you, but doo to software SNAFU (?) he seems to be temporarily deposed.
Hopefully he can help you soon.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Desmato]

Eagerly waiting
I'm the 2nd owner of this machine and the previous owner/operator doesn't know the repair steps and I have NO assistance

The Manuals being written in Sweedlish doesn't help either

 

[TeachMePlease]

Eagerly waiting
I'm the 2nd owner of this machine and the previous owner/operator doesn't know the repair steps and I have NO assistance

The Manuals being written in Sweedlish doesn't help either

If you email Marubeni Citizen Cincom with your serial number, they will send you PDFs of your manuals in English.

 

[Desmato]

Mine are in "english" but the translation isn't the greatest. What I REALLY need is T-shooting/repair manuals and assistance. I constantly get a Z-axis servo alarm, which scraps that one part and requires me to start over. I can always just clear it, but without actual cause/effect guidance, I am just fumbling.

 

[Ox]

Prolly not going to find that info in the (machine) Maint manual.

I suggest that you first run a search here for the alarm that you are getting and see what you can find.
I take it that this is a Fanuc?

A Google search is best, or at least it has been traditionally anyhow.
No experience with current software Search really...

practicalmachinist.com Fanuc 406 (example of Google search) (leave spaces)

If no help, start a new thread with the error code and control make/model.



Is there any chance that you are just trying to push a drill too hard?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[latheman78]

Never been in the same room as a Citizen, but basic trouble shooting methods should work, since you have a working turret that should be a mirror imagine of the one that doesn't work. We should be able to figure it out without manuals or using the ladder if it comes to that. As stated above a maintenance manual won't be enough. You will need the electrical manual that contains the ladder diagram.

First thing, first do not take offense to any advice given, we don't know what you know.

Some questions:

Does the turret index hydraulically or electrically?

Is there a bank of ice cube relays that you can see one or more actuating when indexing the working turret?

Do the turrets have encoders, proximity switches or both?

Were the turrets both working before the machine was relocated to it's current location?

What is the controller make and model?

Unless you can get a hold of all necessary manuals including electrical, ladders and diagnostics, you are going to probably need to get your hands dirty. Get some spray degreaser, contact cleaner, note pad, camera and a clean work bench handy, with containers for crews, washers, nuts and bolts.

 

[latheman78]

The camera has two purposes, in case you forget where something went, and for someone to remotely assist in surgery.

 

[Ox]

The issues in post #1 and post #5 don't seem to be the same, but apparently they are?

Is it throwing the Z alarm AND THEN not finishing the index routine?

If so, are you moving to a "safe index" spot in both X and Z each time before indexing?
(well ... at least Z?)

If so - could it be that you have some chips packed up under the covers that is puting Z in a bit of a bind?


The first post sounds more like a weak/broken shot-pin spring, but you wouldn't think that _ that would toss a Z alarm eh?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Desmato]

Sorry, I did toss a 2nd "issue" at the thread. Both are independent of one another.
I've been a trainer and t-shooter for 28 years in telcom so no offense is taken, only appreciation for the help !

1st issue is the Top Turret (#2): Hydraulic controlled shot-pin, I think the index is electric. It worked up until a few weeks ago and there was no "change" in the machine other than that. It indexes, just won't lock back up. I was reading the Sweedlish manual about checking and adjusting the turret but am lost in translation. maybe that has something to do with it ?

2nd issue is the Z-axis servo alarm periodically. I was getting an X-axis servo alarm as well, but a clean of the brushes when I did an inspection seemed to solve that one. Maybe the Z has the same issue and just needs a good cleaning ? I am ready to remove the yellow end cap on the Servo motor (Fanuc) and take a peek. the X-axis motor looked ..... oily on the commutator.

The control is a Fanuc.... 1, 2, 3, T ??? I don't know which model other than it's a Fanuc. There are about 12 icecube relays in the front control panel but I need an extra set of eyes to do that testing. There are limit switches for the shot-pin that sense when it's "IN" and "OUT" and they work fine, it just stopped trying to pull the pin back in once the turret has rotated. Being that the shot-pin is Hydro, I tried messing with the valves but nothing changed.

I would LOVE to have a schematic for this machine as I could at least start tracing the control. I have called Marubeni and am awaiting a return call regarding the manuals I'm missing.

 

[latheman78]

Whatever you do don't adjust the encoder, if that is what you mean by adjusting the turret.
They can be a nightmare to get timed back in. They don't cause the problem you described. You should be able to write a program in it with dwells to eliminate the need for a helper. G4X15.0 command before something gives you a 15 second delay. Is that shot pin double throw with two hydraulic lines connected to it? I think that vintage machine is a Fanuc 3T.

 

[TeachMePlease]

Is the Z axis servo overload at the same point in the same program every time? Or random?
You should have a "distance to go" screen somewhere (I'm assuming. I'm woefully lacking in knowledge about FANUC controllers that old)...
When it happens, I'm assuming the machine is moving in Z (otherwise you have other issues).... Does it stop at the same point in Z/same distance to go every time?
This could be something as simple as a burr on the OD of your bar stock getting hung up while trying to retract into the guide bushing, causing a Z servo alarm. It could be a drill pushing too hard, causing a Z servo alarm. It doesn't take a ton of unexpected force to throw a Z servo alarm on these smaller machines.

 

[Ox]

I guess - to follow up on Teach's post ... Is this a solid or moveable turret that is tripping your Z issue?
Meaning, is the Z that you are ref to the actual barstock movement, or an independant slide?

My post above is ass_u_ming "independant", and Teach's is ass_u_ming a solid one.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[TeachMePlease]

I guess - to follow up on Teach's post ... Is this a solid or moveable turret that is tripping your Z issue?
Meaning, is the Z that you are ref to the actual barstock movement, or an independant slide?

My post above is ass_u_ming "independant", and Teach's is ass_u_ming a solid one.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Turret and guide bushing slide together.

 

[Ox]

Oh, I was guessing that one was solid with the other'n moveable.

I have an older Tornos that has twin turrets.
The front one moves with the bushing, but the rear is independant.
But it would have to be to doo sub-spindle work.

Apparently a sub was not an option on this platform...


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[latheman78]

I guess - to follow up on Teach's post ... Is this a solid or moveable turret that is tripping your Z issue?
Meaning, is the Z that you are ref to the actual barstock movement, or an independant slide?

My post above is ass_u_ming "independant", and Teach's is ass_u_ming a solid one.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

From what pictures I see the turrets are both on a casting and don't move independent of each other. The headstock slides on Z like a Swiss. It does look like the turrets can move on x and z in tandem. I wish the OP would start posting pictures, that is the only way someone not familiar with those models can help. I don't think I have seen a machine styled like that, that I can remember.

 

[aj]

I have an 85-ish F16 and am having an issue with the rear turret. It will unlock the shotpin, move to the new tool, but NOT put the shotpin back in. Doesn't even try, from what I can tell. I can manually push the pin back in and continue working, but ...

We have an F20 from around the same time period with the 3T controller. There are around half a dozen servo-controlled valves on the back of the machine that control things like turret and chuck clamping and un-clamping. I've had a couple fail and give me symptoms similar to yours.

Might be worth a check.

~aj

 

[latheman78]

We have an F20 from around the same time period with the 3T controller. There are around half a dozen servo-controlled valves on the back of the machine that control things like turret and chuck clamping and un-clamping. I've had a couple fail and give me symptoms similar to yours.

Might be worth a check.

~aj

Are those actuated through ice cube relays? Do the wires on your machine have numbered bands on them? I would assume your machine to be almost a carbon copy of the OP's just larger.

 

[aj]

Are those actuated through ice cube relays? Do the wires on your machine have numbered bands on them? I would assume your machine to be almost a carbon copy of the OP's just larger.hey are, yes.

They are, yes. There are two relays on the top row (on mine) that say T2UCL and T2CL. They click open and closed as the upper turret indexes.

The wires on the servos have no numbers though. Sorry.

 

[latheman78]

Are all those ice cube relays identical? Which ones run the lower turret? First thing the OP could try is swapping those.