CNC Mill for Occasional Use in Fabrication Shop

[jellywerker]

I'm working with a fabrication shop that occasionally has need for better CNC capabilities than our Trak bed mill, but we're not quite sure where to start with machine selection.

In some instances it makes sense to outsource, but typically we need more control over timeline and part flow than we can get with an outside vendor. Maybe if we had more consistent volume machining work and were able to develop a close relationship with a shop, but those aren't our circumstances.

A typical situation is that a job with more machined components than typical will come though, get final approval, and then we'll need parts on the floor to start integrating into our work within the next week or so. We don't usually have the luxury of having full approval 6-10 weeks prior to needing to start fabrication.

We have a good machinist who will be able to learn and operate anything we bring in. We have 60-100 square feet we can allocate, adequate power, compressed air, etc...

The question is what type/models of machine to keep an eye out for? We'd be looking to buy used since our usage is very spiky - a few times a year it will pump out parts for a few weeks, the rest of the time it will probably sit idle.

The main requirements are 40 taper spindle so we can use our current toolholders, and a toolchanger. Other than that, we're flexible. The parts we'd want to run here are aren't huge or very complicated. The tolerance requirements aren't high. What we don't want to do is spend too much time and money making an old machine reliable. We don't need a project.

I'm leaning towards a Haas VF1 or similar from the last 10-15 years. If there's something a bit more compact and likely to be available for a similar price range used, I'm open to alternatives. I don't want something too special or uncommon. Budget is between $10-30k for the machine and transport to our shop. Not concerned about additional expenses for tooling and such.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

What kind of parts do you make? The reason I ask is obviously related to size. Two examples: you might create a lot of brackets that have hole patterns drilled into them and the parts will fit in a vise, or on a table fixture. Maybe you cut the outlines or whatever but, small parts.

Opposite end: a buddy had an RFQ come in for drilling 12 foot, 4x4 steel tubes, with something like 1/2" pin holes, regularly spaced at each end. Maybe 10 holes on each end, 20 total. They needed a bunch. Some kind of tooling / scaffolding thing for an aerospace test.

Yes, it could be done on a drill press but, I challenged nothing was going to poke those holes faster than his Haas. A couple of vises to cradle the tube, open the windows on the side, a roller support to hold up the end of the tube and away we go. Just don't home the table and keep the rapids at 5%. He'd get consistent drill pressure and feed rate and the holes would be precisely spaced without a care in the world.

Or doing some complex miter cut at the end of a longer piece of material. Or some other prep work on the same.

So those are two very different uses but, both in the fabrication realm. Are you ever going to want to do things to longer / larger parts? Is there any advantage to size or is a VF-1 / VF-2 going to cover it?

 

[jellywerker]

Thanks for the additional questions. We do longer stuff like handrails on the Trak (we're in arch fab) and the speed is fine for that work.
This mill would be for parts in the 4-20 square inch range. 2D profiles in brass, drilling and tapping small small parts (1-2in diameter x 1-2in long) for addition into weldments, etc...

Cleaning up saw cut miters on short sections of bar stock would also be a fairly common operation. Honestly, once we have something, we'll probably find ways to apply it even on the jobs where we could have coped just fine with our current setup.

We have the equipment for the large scale, low volume stuff at speeds that work for us. We get caught up when something like our current situation comes up - hundreds of smaller decorative profiles that need to be assembled into brazed components, and we need to start them flowing through the shop very soon after project approval/kickoff due to the additional operations and finishing required.

For example, the MiniMill has a pretty small table/travel, but that envelope would fit anywhere from 5-15 copies of the sorts of parts we would be running, and the overall speeds and addition of the toolchanger relative to the Trak would turn it into something that would help our shop flow substantially. Something larger like the VF1 would just increase what we could fit on the table so we can run larger batches, but feeding the machine isn't too big of a problem.

 

[nihilistic]

Don't get the smaller machines for the work you do. I have worked with fab shops and its always a different demand. Get a VF-2 at a minimum.

You quickly run out of space when you add workholding. It is great to have more than one vise on the table so you can quickly pivot without losing work. Or doing quick 2 op switch offs.

 

[triumph406]

Fadal 4020
Cheap
easy to repair
A Lizard could learn the control in an hour or two

 

[Donkey Hotey]

I'm blamed for being the Haas fanboy around here so my answers will be skewed that way. The small frame VF (1 and 2) fit into garages and are therefore more desirable in the used market. I would bet you could get a VF3 or VF4 for nearly the same money. You get more Z clearance and a little more room in the cabinet.

 

[jellywerker]

Noted, however space is at a premium even for us, so I'm not sure we can accommodate the extra 2-3 feet of width.

Fadal looks interesting, I'll do some research there as well. Seem pretty beefy for the price point.

 

[William Lynn]

Take a look at a Makino KE 55. Our shop had one and was quite handy for quick work.

 

[BT Fabrication]

I'm working with a fabrication shop that occasionally has need for better CNC capabilities than our Trak bed mill, but we're not quite sure where to start with machine selection.

In some instances it makes sense to outsource, but typically we need more control over timeline and part flow than we can get with an outside vendor. Maybe if we had more consistent volume machining work and were able to develop a close relationship with a shop, but those aren't our circumstances.

A typical situation is that a job with more machined components than typical will come though, get final approval, and then we'll need parts on the floor to start integrating into our work within the next week or so. We don't usually have the luxury of having full approval 6-10 weeks prior to needing to start fabrication.

We have a good machinist who will be able to learn and operate anything we bring in. We have 60-100 square feet we can allocate, adequate power, compressed air, etc...

The question is what type/models of machine to keep an eye out for? We'd be looking to buy used since our usage is very spiky - a few times a year it will pump out parts for a few weeks, the rest of the time it will probably sit idle.

The main requirements are 40 taper spindle so we can use our current toolholders, and a toolchanger. Other than that, we're flexible. The parts we'd want to run here are aren't huge or very complicated. The tolerance requirements aren't high. What we don't want to do is spend too much time and money making an old machine reliable. We don't need a project.

I'm leaning towards a Haas VF1 or similar from the last 10-15 years. If there's something a bit more compact and likely to be available for a similar price range used, I'm open to alternatives. I don't want something too special or uncommon. Budget is between $10-30k for the machine and transport to our shop. Not concerned about additional expenses for tooling and such.

parts size is where you start and type of parts. why buy a laser when you need a lathe etc? a 40" part wont fit nice in a VM-3 etc, you need 6" or so all around the part to make the tooling fit etc comfortably.

 

[Mtndew]

What do you need done that the Trak can't do?
You need more speed? More power?

 

[memphisjed]

I with Mr dew. What are you trying to gain over the trak? I can see use for vf-big or trak/knee mill in fab shop.
Flex drill.

 

[jellywerker]

We're trying to gain speed and reduce the amount of time our machinist needs to babysit the machine to swap tools. I had a big long post written up, but that's the core of it. We have jobs come up that turn machining into a bottleneck for us. They seem to happen once or twice a year. We want to remove that bottleneck, without over-investing.

Sounds like a basic Haas will do us just fine, and I wasn't much aware of Fadal before, but they also seem like a solid option as I've done more research. Honestly sounds like most any mid-size VMC will be a giant step up, and if we can find a decent deal on a not-too-old machine, then it won't matter much if it's only used for a few dozen hours in between these larger jobs.

We could buy a second Trak, but buying another machine without a toolchanger doesn't sound pleasant.

 

[Peroni]

We could buy a second Trak, but buying another machine without a toolchanger doesn't sound pleasant.

TRAK makes enclosed CNC machines with a tool changer, have you looked into one? For what you want to do it seems like a good fit and there will not be a huge learning curve with the control.

 

[Garwood]

Honest criticism- Doesn't sound like you have much of a machinist on staff if he doesn't know what machine you need for the work you do?

My machine choice would be whatever local, low cost VMC came up for sale with the specs/condition I needed and a Fanuc control. 1990 or newer. $5k should cover that no problem.

Fadal is always needing something something fixed. Often major things like turcite. Fadal will never be on my list.

Used Haas are a horrible value. If you find a nice 2000+ VF2 for $5k go for it. But they're $25k+ which is retarded for what they are. Buy anything else way better for 80% less money.

 

[SteveEx30]

Anything with a Fanuc !
Keep it simple and able to service/obtain parts.

 

[triumph406]

Fadal is always needing something something fixed. Often major things like turcite. Fadal will never be on my list.

I was at a shop in Torrance a few weeks ago, guy had 2 Fadals, another coming in a few weeks. I didn't walk across the drive, but I could see 3 Fadals in another shop, friend has 4, just added another 5020A, and the CNCPROS control. There's shops all over So Cal still running Fadals. There's a lot of Fadals now in TJ. Theyt value reliability and ease of maintenance down there

I'm always fascinated but what I'm missing and the thousands of others that own Fadal are as well.

Maybe it's the fact I can get any part for a Fadal from multiple sources within a day, or that their easy to work on, or that the control is super simple to use, or that there's no parameters to loose.

 

[bigjon61]

Take a look at a Makino KE 55. Our shop had one and was quite handy for quick work.

I'll second this. While it doesn't have a tool changer, the ease of set up makes it worth it, especially in a fab shop. Easy to program simple circles or angled cuts with their "conversational" programming, but fully capable of drip feeding a long CAM program.

 

[Speedie]

Milltronic open mills were made for occassional users...laser shops...secondary ops, tool rooms. You can find a old fadal, milltronics rh30 and rock and roll. Fadal is supported so well a clapped out fadal is often repaired or the components are sold very fast to those with them. Some folks have had rock solid luck with older jappies but a novice with a older jappie cam render it worthless in minutes with a few good crashes. You want simple...conversational control is where its at

 

[Garwood]

I was at a shop in Torrance a few weeks ago, guy had 2 Fadals, another coming in a few weeks. I didn't walk across the drive, but I could see 3 Fadals in another shop, friend has 4, just added another 5020A, and the CNCPROS control. There's shops all over So Cal still running Fadals. There's a lot of Fadals now in TJ. Theyt value reliability and ease of maintenance down there

I'm always fascinated but what I'm missing and the thousands of others that own Fadal are as well.

Maybe it's the fact I can get any part for a Fadal from multiple sources within a day, or that their easy to work on, or that the control is super simple to use, or that there's no parameters to loose.

Sure.

I see Jeeps all over. Driving down the road. Got their cute little "It's a Jeep thing" stickers. So happy for them.

You can buy anything for a Jeep. Did you know that? There are thousands of companies that make parts to fix Jeeps. There are forums for Jeeps. Dozens of them. So many people helping other people fix their Jeeps. It's really wonderful they have that.

I don't own Jeeps. I've inspected and driven and done all of the things a person that owns a company that builds premium automotive products does when they see a vehicle for the first time. Therefore, I do not own Jeeps.

What do you think?

Should we make some stickers?

"It's a Fadal thing"

 

[Vancbiker]

I was at a shop in Torrance a few weeks ago, guy had 2 Fadals, another coming in a few weeks. I didn't walk across the drive, but I could see 3 Fadals in another shop, friend has 4, just added another 5020A, and the CNCPROS control. There's shops all over So Cal still running Fadals. There's a lot of Fadals now in TJ. Theyt value reliability and ease of maintenance down there

I'm always fascinated but what I'm missing and the thousands of others that own Fadal are as well.

Maybe it's the fact I can get any part for a Fadal from multiple sources within a day, or that their easy to work on, or that the control is super simple to use, or that there's no parameters to loose.

Similar to Garwood’s point above, my negative feelings about Fadal stem partially from the frequency of little things popping up that need attention. IME, most Fadal users tell about having to replace parts and how easy they are to get. You also.

For me, a machine that runs years or decades without breakdowns or needing repairs is far preferable.