Darex ends support for older machines.

[Greg Quenneville]

While perusing the Darex site I noticed their news item announcing the end of support for all machines that have been discontinued for more than five years.

Just got off the phone with them...they are serious that all old stock parts are going to be quarantined Monday, Aug 15

Tomorrow is the last day to get an order into their system for parts.

This'll kill the ebay market for incomplete machines.

Greg

 

[dkmc]

Whacky company marketing approach for sure.......
I'm glad I only paid $50 for my M5 2o years ago....I'll never buy
any new machine from them.

Then again, maybe some clever guy will pick up the spares market
with aftermarket parts?


dk

 

[Edster]

Thats upsetting news. I bought an M5 new in 2002-2003. The thing isn't even 10 years old and it's been discontinued and parts are no longer available. I'm so glad I didn't buy their new model sharpener when I saw it in 09 at fabtech. I'll never buy another product from darex again.

Btw, I went to their website and saw the "ask the president" link.

DAREx - Ask the President

I put my 2 cents in, maybe if more of us do the same they will get their heads out of their @sses

 

[jbacc]

I fired off a message to the President of Darex as well. I'm sure my opinion won't matter much to him but I sure felt better letting him know how I feel :-)

 

[PeteM]

The heads-up is appreciated.

Still, I'm not sure it matters much. The things that break or wear on the M series (wheels, the plastic straps) are easily sourced elsewhere. Otherwise the machines are pretty bullet proof. Even if the motor went -- which I've never seen -- the drill sharpening bits can be moved to another grinder. The one possible issue is wear to the chucks -- so it's worth taking the time to keep them free of grinding grit. Still, given the cost of new chucks, most folks here might just move on to another drill grinder.

Point is, I suppose, that Darex probably wasn't selling too many parts and probably made a reasonable business decision to move on. Those who have machines can likely expect years of use ahead.

 

[surplusjohn]

stupid, first they should be making money on their spares, second, if I found out my 5 year old machine is now useless because it is missing a part I would be pissed. Lots, maybe most users, dont understand that just about any part can be purchased elsewhere or easily made, so it just seems counterproductive. THis was either a cynical attempt at getting users to replace their machines or the thinking that they were narrowing focus.

 

[HankOD]

Question from Darex

We monitor user forums to stay current with customers’ satisfaction levels and needs. Our purpose is to learn and thereby provide better products. We normally resist posting because we do not want to intrude. This situation feels a little different and I want to ask for some help.

I appreciate the frustration regarding discontinued parts and am thinking about what we might do differently. We find ourselves in an environment of rising replacement part costs due to small demand, resulting in small runs. We have resisted raising prices on parts to avoid looking like we are overcharging. So, please help us out by sharing your opinions on the questions in the next paragraph. This input can help us determine how to better serve our customer.

From a customer’s prospective, how long should the manufacturer have replacement parts available? What percentage of the original machine price are you willing to pay in replacement parts before you look to purchase a new machine? How do you decide if the cost of a replacement part is too high?

 

[PeteM]

HankOD,

Thanks for weighing in. One thing you might consider is working with "communities" like this one and offer special prices on items if larger orders can be obtained.

An example was a bulk order of about 100 books (Machine Tool Reconditioning) years ago. The price of the book was cut to around $88 with the larger order -- good for both folks here and the publisher. It's a different world today -- your distributors are no longer the force they once were. "Communities" are a rising force.

I'm not sure what the economic order lot is with, say, chucks or wheels, but this might be a way to have a win for you and your subs, and a win (and good will) for users. If there isn't enough demand; well you tried and users can't fault you for that.

I'd also suggest that part of the frustration may be with your own product line. Could be I'm ignorant of what you have, but there is a pretty big gap between the "Drill Doctor" (which most here view as a hobbyist toy) and a simple (affordable for a small shop) yet accurate/reliable drill pointer. The M series filled this gap. Today?? I'd suggest that around $500 ($395 - $595) would be the price point.

 

[sfriedberg]

From a customer’s prospective, how long should the manufacturer have replacement parts available?

Since we are talking industrial tools and not kitchen appliances, the answer is "as long as you are in business". The machines and their accessories aren't consumables. I can get replacement parts (at a horrendous price) even for many machines whose manufacturers are long out of business, since they sold their IP on to others.

Darex's current products are not significantly less expensive than Black Diamond drill grinders, and BD will rebuild their machines up to about 20 years old. I suggest that you really don't want to be (perceived to be) in the consumable/disposable machine business.

Obviously, "until the end of time" is not ideal from the manufacturer's perspective! But deviations should be thoughtfully considered, and the manufacturer should have a story to tell the customer for each specific machine/part that is dropped. "We don't want to mess with it anymore, and make higher margins selling new machines" may be true, but it's not compelling to your customer.

What percentage of the original machine price are you willing to pay in replacement parts before you look to purchase a new machine?

Over how long a time period? What is the new machine doing for me that the old one didn't? How much retraining do I need to operate the new machine up to the same level as the old one? How much new tooling do I have to buy to bring the new machine up to the same level as the old one?

How do you decide if the cost of a replacement part is too high?

That's hard to answer. There are at least three ways to judge "too high": based on original machine/part production price, based on one-off part price, and based on value to the customer. Inexperienced people may expect obsolete parts to be replaced at the original production cost. More experienced folks may have their own ideas about what a one-off "should" cost. And even if the customer avoids judgements about what a "reasonable" replacement cost is, only the customer can decide if the cost is worth it.

If I am sharpening 1 drill a month, I won't pay $200 for an M4 replacement chuck. If I am sharpening 100 drills a month with a variety of controlled point geometries and a new dedicated machine costs $1400 - $3600, I will. Both decisions are instant no-brainers. If an M4 replacement chuck cost $800, the second decision requires answers to the 2nd quoted question above.

 

[Greg Quenneville]

Hank, another factor is the perception of Darex as a serious partner to the buyer. We all want ro deal with old-fashioned vendors who provide friendly support for their product forever. Obviously that's impossible, but meeting us half-way at least would help retain Darex's reputation as a reliable and concerned supplier.

I'd pay 30% for repair parts.

Greg

 

[S_W_Bausch]

There might be a hidden story here....it might be about all the parts marked as "Patented", or "Patent Pending", etc.

There are lawyers that specialize is suing any maker that claims an expired patent.

And the rules recently were re-interpreted, to allow 'per-piece' penalties.

Expired patents could cost Brooks Brothers $500 per tie - DailyFinance

So..... Darex might have a bunch of "patented" parts that are no longer...

Damned if they remove the marking [fair game for cloning!].

Damned if they don't remove the marking.


My guess is when the critical mass of Darex patents expire, manufacturing may go to China.

I just found this....Damn, I'm good!

The six other targets listed are Advanced Vision Research, Darex, Global Instruments, Merck, Novartis Pharmaceuticals, and Tru Fire. Filing patent infringement suits against large companies appears to be a frequent pastime of this attorney. According to Justia.com, Simonian has 9 such cases pending before the Northern Illinois Federal Circuit Court, all filed between February 25 and March 4. In the case against Cisco, he's using the same tactic as against the others: A claim that Cisco deliberately continues to publish expired patent information on some of it's products,

Found at: http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/58446

 

[Edster]

DAREx - Obsolete Parts Available Again!

Awesome!

Thanks for continuing to support my m5

 

[tdmidget]

DAREx - Obsolete Parts Available Again!

Awesome!

Thanks for continuing to support my m5

Don't thank them until you see the prices, which they have warned you about.

 

[dkmc]

We made the decision to stop sales of these parts based on several factors including the rising cost of procuring the parts and the dated technology of the machines being serviced.

Dated technology??

Have drill points and sharpening methods changed much over the last 90 years ? Is it completely necessary to involve a microprocessor and automation in a $10,000 machine to successfully sharpen a $5 drill?
Is there NO market left for the manual machines ???

 

[surplusjohn]

I think it is awesome that Darex responded and corrected this situation. Having been on both sides of this, I understand what was going on. BTW, the patent thing is important, I have a friend who got caught in that and it cost some dough.

 

[WizardOfBoz]

I suggest that you really don't want to be (perceived to be) in the consumable/disposable machine business.

This makes a lot of sense. If you want to be perceived as being in the same space as Harbor Freight, don't supply parts and let folks view your machines as replaceable. Then you will have to price the NEW machines accordingly.

Down that road lies the death of a company.

One way to make sure that the decision is economic, and not "by force" is to raise prices on spare parts to the point where that business is profitable. That way, the customer can decide.

Glad to note that Darex was responsive - I feel that it is rare that a company will do this, even more rare to do so publicly.

 

[surplusjohn]

I think it is awesome that Darex responded and corrected this situation. Having been on both sides of this, I understand what was going on. BTW, the patent thing is important, I have a friend who got caught in that and it cost some dough.

A professional tool should be a "lifetime Tool" ie last until something better comes along. that is an ideal of course.

 

[S_W_Bausch]

dated technology of the machines being serviced.....

Dated technology??

As I noted in a previous post, it seems that Darex is being sued for displaying expired patents on currently sold items, which is a patent law violation and opens them up for (perhaps) up to $500 penalty for each item sold.

If I am correct, Darex first response was to scrap all the parts (and tooling), and no longer sell those parts.

If I am correct, Darex has reconsidered and will now remove the "patent pending" and "Patent No. xxxxxxxx" marks on the items and packaging before selling them.

Or, If I am correct, Darex will retool and produce the parts without the patent claim markings (since the patents have expired).

Now, they need to worry about aftermarket parts taking market share.

It's a messy situation, but if Darex focuses on "delighting the customer", they will be okay.

Or, maybe not:
Is Delighting The Customer Profitable? - Forbes

 

[9100]

An interesting complex question. One item not mentioned here is whether Darex has to pay taxes on inventory, which I consider the stupidest tax ever invented. A rational government would give a tax break on inventory up to a certain amount so merchandise would be available when needed. Letting a part sit on the shelf for a few years can eat up any possible profit from an eventual sale. A lot depends on the nature of the business. In the beginning of the personal computer age, a couple of years after a manufacturer discontinued a model storing parts made no sense because almost all customers would have upgraded by then. As the field matures, that is less true and maintaining older units makes more sense. Darex is in an industry where a 20 year old machine is normal. People don't replace drill grinders every few years. They have to work in a different algorithm.

The comments in the article SW cited are interesting to me because I was operating almost as an unofficial GE subsidiary during the coming of Jack Welch. Payments got longer and longer, which had some logic in the Carter administration high interest rates, but they got on that track and continued it after things settled down. While the accountants are gloating over their interest savings, they are not tracking the higher bids and no bids coming into their shops. One time the GE shop asked me to supply some 1/16" hardened pins. I pointed out that I would have to get drill blanks and cut them off and round the ends by hand at a cost many times what they should have cost from the OEM. The answer was that accounts payable had taken so long to pay for the last order that the supplier had cut them off and they needed the pins. When are companies going to figure out that "Delighting the vendor" can also pay off?

Bill

Edit: Most lawyers like the ones mentioned should be shot on sight. Don't wait til sunrise, it just gives them time to file another lawsuit.

 

[ZAGNUT]

isn't darex kinda small to be lumped in with giants like cisco and novartis? i mean, like how big could the tool sharpening business actually be?

so how did this douche bag simian hog shit lawyer even find darex? maybe his dad has a darex sharpener out in the garage?

this kind of crap is the precise reason why manufacturing is leaving america at an accelerated pace. it's not about cheap foreign labor but about stupidity that prevents you from actually getting anything done.