Deckel FP-1 VFD conversion keeping the original electrical panel

[drcoelho]

Well, if this is a European machine, that is roughly what European 3 phase voltages are. Possibly it was a US model or modified to operate on 220V. Something that one should understand when mucking with a machine.

 

[jdm1]

Well, if this is a European machine, that is roughly what European 3 phase voltages are. Possibly it was a US model or modified to operate on 220V. Something that one should understand when mucking with a machine.

Why the assumptions?
Deckel was big enough in the day to ship machines having the correct voltage for North America.
As the OP mentioned, he has been using it fine for 30 years, and his latest setup appears to have been done with competence.
It was mean to show and discuss how it was done, not to report a problem. Hopefully he will want to do that again.

 

[drcoelho]

The voltage needs to be determined by face plate on the machine or the motors, it is either 220 or 400, probably 220 as he was working the machine successfully in the past. If Deckel shipped it with the 220 option, the wiring is likely setup to offer both options, e.g. 220 or 400V.

My main suggestion is to lose the VFD. My view is that this is causing the OP all sorts off issues, and all that timing related stuff he discusses is really suspicious. I suggest just going with a very simple properly sized phase converter connected directly to the one primary 3 phase input the machine originally was configured with. KEEP IT SIMPLE, is almost always the best way to proceed. And, having a properly sized phase converter is critical as well.

 

[AlfaGTA]

The voltage needs to be determined by face plate on the machine or the motors, it is either 220 or 400, probably 220 as he was working the machine successfully in the past. If Deckel shipped it with the 220 option, the wiring is likely setup to offer both options, e.g. 220 or 400V.

Just to be accurate that would be 380v......
Most Deckel manual machines i have seen and accessories have dual voltage motors and control transformers allowing running on either 220 or 380 with no additional hardware.

Biggest tell on where the original market was for a manual Deckel is the measuring system.....Inch or meter......That definitely requires hardware changes of lead screws, dials and feed drive gearing (Y)
Cheers Ross

 

[drcoelho]

Given that we're splitting hairs on 380 versus 400V, the frequency will also vary from 50 to 60 Hz, but honestly, none of this matters all that much, close enough for electric motors to work properly. FYI, my FPS 300M is actually 400V as is my Weiler lathe, so Germany at least with modern machines is really running at 400V.

 

[laminar-flow]

So far so good with the conversion. There are several things that have made this change so nice. One is that you always can walk up to the machine and turn it on. No remembering inverter ON. The second is the slow start ramp up that does not clack the gears which has the added advantage of not disturbing the DRO setting. I have a VFD on my surface grinder and I use its speed control to warm up the spindle and also once warmed up, when started and stopped, the slow start does not influence the wheel dress.

On the Deckel FP-1, the VFD carrier frequency is set at 16kHz which is the max.

 

[AlfaGTA]

On the Deckel FP-1, the VFD carrier frequency is set at 16kHz which is the max.

16kHz....??????????
Cheers Ross

 

[jdm1]

16kHz....??????????

Yes. Carrier frequency, not output frequency.
https://eshop.se.com/in/blog/post/things-you-must-know-about-vfd.html#:~:text=Also known as changing frequency,the carrier or switching frequency.

380 Vs 400 Vs 440 V: Not all European countries historically had the same voltage, with single phase being nominally 220, 230, or 240 V. Or any close or in between value depending from your distance to the transformer, and the fluctuations of the day.
The standardization was made to 400 / 230 V. Most people still call the voltage with the original nominal value that was used in their country. You can read articles that say that no actual effort is made to change voltage to the new standard, but that's not completely true.

 

[laminar-flow]

That was a good link. Thanks. Output frequency is 60Hz so the FP-1 can operate as originally designed. It is so nice.

 

[Oldsteve1]

Having recently lost my phase perfect solid state converter, and the new phase perfect not running the unique Deckel motor correctly, my son and I looked into converting to a single VFD. We wanted to keep the original Deckel functionality and the electrical cabinet, but how with a two speed motor and a high speed head motor? Although some including I have done it, VFD’s are not to be switched on output. He devised a way and it works great.

So the main 220 feeds directly to a TECO 3hp 220 VFD, a split was used to power the control transformer, which is powered all the time as is the VFD. The original Deckel start buttons close the existing Deckel relays as before and the power from the three lights, Low Speed, High Speed, and High Speed head were used to trip the relays which starts the VFD. The VFD is left at 60 Hz. There is a slight delay on the VFD and it is set to ramp up to full speed. (frequency), in about 2 seconds. This has an added benefit of not clacking the gears as I’m sure all of us FP-1 users know about. The switching of the output original Deckel contactors occurs about .25 seconds before the VFD power arrives.

Very nice!!!
My FP3 is done in a similar fashion.
The VFD is not on all the time .
A the original deckel outputs are available. Plus it now has a momentary forward/ reverse for tapping

 

[Danny VanVoorn]

Even though it goes against what people say about starting and stopping motors with VFDs it’s good to hear it works for you.
One thing I’ve never seen is a dual voltage, 2 speed original equipment motor on a FP1. I’ve had several and luckily all were 220 volt-3 phase, no need for a transformer or wiring swaps.
Dan

 

[jdm1]

One thing I’ve never seen is a dual voltage, 2 speed original equipment motor on a FP1.

This is an interesting observation.

Dual voltage motors (mid-winding tapped, for choice of wye or delta wiring) are especially popular in the Americas, I suppose that's because manufacturers always wanted to produce a single type, without major added cost, to cover all the country no matter the delivery voltage (high or low) in any given area or to a particular user. Most of these motors are single speed.

Dual speed motors (also known as pole changing or Dahander) are (or were, before the advent of Variable Frequency Drive) extremely advantageous in applications where you need variable speed at the load without sacrificing torque, as they allow to halve the complexity and cost of reducing devices, gearbox especially. I think they will stay however, because they produce more torque than VFD at the same speed.

For the American manufacturers dual voltage, dual speed motor are not uncommon, but they are for the Europeans.I thigh we can say the two features are kind of orthogonal from an European perspective. Low voltage three phase was never dominant on Europe. So machinery manufacturers only shipped a simpler motor made for the specific buyer placing the order.