Deckel FP1 Motorproblems

[Peter from Holland]

​

We have this really nice looking and running FP1 In fact really nice running
It is the later model with Iso 40 taper
It also has a dual speed 3ph 220volt motor So 220volts only
Ideal for domestic use in combination with a VFD
But......
There is always a BUT
The motor runs hot and hardly pulls it at max speed
Not a big deal Buy another one you would sayAnd here is the BUT
Which motor to buy ?????
Dual speed 240volts 3ph like the original??
Dual speed 400volts 3ph like the majority of the Deckel FP1 here To make it easier to sell in Europe
Or 3th possibility Single speed 240/400Volts 3ph motor
So it is more attractive for domestic users with only 240volts 1Ph to use the machine with a VFD​

I decided to let the customer decide
I can demonstrate the machine as is
And I buy the motor the customer preferes
Good plan?????​

 

[thanvg]

There is always a BUT​

There is always a BUT Peter, agree!

Your plan makes sense, I think it will make the machine attractive to more users

BR,
Thanos

 

[AlfaGTA]

Curious that it has the small hand wheel on the "Z".
Cheers Ross

 

[Peter from Holland]

Curious that it has the small hand wheel on the "Z".
Cheers Ross

Probably not original

 

[Peter from Holland]

Another problem might be that those flangmotors are almost unobtainable 110mm flangediam and 130mm boltcirkel
Smaller ones as 95mm flangediam and 110mm boltcirkle plenty Perhaps we have to make some adaptations
Peter

 

[Peter Colman]

You could always get the motor rewound if the customer likes the voltage

 

[AlfaGTA]

There aren't any reputable electric motor shops in Holland?
Must be something wrong with that motor....bad field coil or ?
Its been some time, but i had a single voltage 440v motor rewound to be dual speed 220v for the shop FP3 by a local shop who did work for the local Navy ship yard.(Mare Island)
Cost $550.00 w/ balancing and new bearings.
Cheers Ross

 

[Peter from Holland]

Yes We have

There aren't any reputable electric motor shops in Holland?
Must be something wrong with that motor....bad field coil or ?
Its been some time, but i had a single voltage 440v motor rewound to be dual speed 220v for the shop FP3 by a local shop who did work for the local Navy ship yard.(Mare Island)
Cost $550.00 w/ balancing and new bearings.
Cheers Ross

Yes We have a2 shops nearby And it can be rewound Even do rewind DC collector motors But rewinding is about the same price as new on smaller motors Only have to find the right one
Peter

 

[AlfaGTA]

Seems rewinding is as good as new.....Just bearings nothing to wear out and having the correct frame that mounts up w/o having to cobble up an adapter seems like a better plan IMO.
Cheers Ross

 

[Peter from Holland]

Seems rewinding is as good as new.....Just bearings nothing to wear out and having the correct frame that mounts up w/o having to cobble up an adapter seems like a better plan IMO.
Cheers Ross

I am and always was aware of this option yes But still waiting for a offer for the right motor from my supplier I hope he can deliver

 

[jim rozen]

In my limited experience, three phase motors either work, or they don't. So for me being down on hp says one of two things: a) the motor will fail a winding continuity check and or fail a megger ground isolation check, or b) there's a wiring error. I am guessing this is a two speed consequent pole motor - key is if the low speed hp rating scales down with the speed reduction, then it probably is. Those motors have to have specific switching requiements to change speeds. If a contacor were not operating correctly, or if the connections got scrambled a bit, you could get your observables. In one speed range three of the windings are shorted together, and line goes to the other three. The other speed range has the three that had been shorted get line voltage, and the ones tha previously had line, are now open. On older machines the hi/lo switching is done via drum switches, the deckel does this with contactors. If the motor windings were accidentally scrambled, or if a contactor were welded shut, or inoperable from an open coil, weird things will happen.

Ohm out the windings and megger it too. The windings (if it's consequent pole) w will be in the form of a ring with six equidistant taps. From any one wire you should see three different reistances - two will show one value, two will show a different value, and one will show a third value.

If the ohms and the megger number are OK, it's probably a mis-wire or a problem with the control circuits for the contactors -or a contactor itself.

 

[Peter from Holland]

It is not a contactor IMHO As for high and low it used different contactors and the syptoms are the same in low and high
Amps differ a bit 4.82-4.99-4.66 Amp at high speed and 2000rpm setting on the dial But is that too much It takes some time to come up to speed then
But these amps are still below the max of 5.4A The motor smells a bit
Voltages are correct
Perhaps borrow the megger once more
BTW I got me a price for the correct motor at €395,-
Not worth a rewind

Peter

 

[DennisCA]

Those 240 / 400 V motors are AFAIK 3 phase motors on both configurations. It's just a matter of if they are connected in delta or wye configuration.

So I don't think a domestic user without 3 phase could run such a motor, well with a VFD they could, perhaps that is what you meant.

 

[Peter from Holland]

Those 240 / 400 V motors are AFAIK 3 phase motors on both configurations. It's just a matter of if they are connected in delta or wye configuration.

So I don't think a domestic user without 3 phase could run such a motor, well with a VFD they could, perhaps that is what you meant.

delta or wye configuration.does not change anything on speed Only input voltage
This is a Dahlander 2speed motor switching the nr of poles in the motor
And therefore single voltage In this case the original motor is 220v 3ph Opposite to the more commen 380 V 3ph motor
So this motor (if not running hot) could be used in combination with a VFD in a residential area with only 220V single ph (or 2ph) To do so you connect it to low speed 1400rpm at 50Hz
with the VFD you can then go to 100 Hz for the 2800 RPM And also anything in between lower and higher

Peter

 

[jim rozen]

Consequent pole motors (aka. dahlander) *look* like they're delta or wye between speeds. They're not. Again ohm out the windings, you'll need an ohmmeter that reads low resistance with probably two digits to the right of the decimal place. Any one lead should show the same two numbers to two of the other wires, the same different two numbers to two other wires, and single other wire should show the highest value. Draw a ring and put six taps on it, to see what's going on. The megger should show basically infinite resistance to ground, tens of megohms or more. You can roughly check any winding to ground with the DVM, if it's
less than 1 meg ohm, it's probably bad.

The FP2 (late vintage) we have here at work changes hi/low via pushbuttons on the control panel, which means it's running contactors in the electrical box.

Does your older FP1 work the same way?