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Dual Spindles vs. Dual Lathes

In your first post, you mentioned that there are three lathe operations. Were you intending to have the second spindle pass the part back to the first spindle to get all three ops done in one machine? Or prep the blanks in a separate lathe? It would be best if you could get it down to just two operations.

Keep in mind that any lathe with sub-spindle that only has one turret can only be working on one spindle at a time. The other spindle just sits there waiting. Your current setup of two machines would make parts much faster.

What do you see as the benefit to an auto loader/robot? A good human operator can, in many cases, load parts about as fast as a robot- sometimes faster, sometimes not. It depends on the application. So, just putting a robot on the machine isn't going to boost your output significantly unless you plan on running unattended outside of normal hours. There are other benefits to the auto loader, but if you're just looking to make more parts, then it might not be the solution you're looking for.

It was unclear to me if you were looking to replace your current machines or add to them. If you replace the two machines with a single turret, sub-spindle machine, you'll end up with lower output. If you add a single turret machine, you're still not going to get to the 200 parts/day that you want, which is more than double what you're currently doing. Adding a dual turret machine will get you closer, but I guess I don't see it more than doubling your output. Can this process be run unattended? If so, then a gantry/robot loader makes sense. Having a very reliable machining process is critical to that. Birds-nested chips or sizes coming out of tolerance can cause a lot of scrap overnight.

I guess you should define your goals more. If it's just output, and the labor is available, then I'd look at either adding more two-axis lathes or adding shifts to get to the desired output. If the goal is to reduce the amount of labor involved, then yeah, a sub spindle lathe with live tooling would be the ticket. Just don't get tricked into thinking that just because something is more automated, that the output will be higher. A cell with three lathes, a mill, and however many operators needed to keep all those spindles turning will outproduce that fancy automated lathe.

One last thought... Changeovers on an auto-loaded lathe can be time-consuming. For example, for that Takisawa TT that was linked above... to change from one diameter part to another, you'd have to change chuck jaws on two chucks, two sets of loader grippers, two sets of grippers for the changeover station, and then adjust all the stacking stations. It's not difficult work, but it's not quick. I hate changing one set of jaws, much less six! So, if your work requires frequent changeovers, keep this in mind.

Good luck!
 
Ther are a group of two spindle machines with an integrated gantry. Fuji, Okuma and we sell versions of a Takisawa that does this in high volume jobs just like this. Turn one side and then the gantry loads the other spindle after a turn around station. This is used in thousands of automotive applications. Link below to video
takisawa TT-2600G - Bing video

Watching the vid, early on it looked like the chucks looked at each other real quick.

:eek: Did I just see what my eyes told me that I saw? :eek:


So I had'ta watch more....

Yep, that's what happened!

That is interesting to say the least, but I doubt that I would go for that....
I think I'll stick to opposed / fixed spindles....

But it is interesting to see at least...


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
The dual spindle sounds obvious but there are some considerations, for example Doosan told us we could not fit a 10" chuck on the sub. Mori was in yesterday and had similar concerns as well, which is what brought up the idea of two single spindle machines. I like that the dual spindle handles all the flips and reduces the need for, or the amount of work a robot (or gantry) loader would have to do.

What brands have a chucker style lathe w/a 10" chuck and 30(ish) HP? That would mitigate the floor space issue. Then there is the issue two machines would be running potentially different parts with different cycle times that don't jive which complicates loading with a single 'bot :crazy:

This is why I say Mazak Multiplex. It is not a subspindle. They are 2 full-sized, main spindles. It is essentially 2 three or four axis lathes mirrored into a 6 or 8 axis lathe. Quite impressive.
 
We are looking at add equipment. We could either add a more universal machine(s) and keep doing the same mix of all size parts in all machines, or we could get something a bit more specialized and dedicate it to our most popular 9" and/or 10" applications and keep the frequent changeovers to the old machines.

Good help is pretty hard to find ATM. We have been looking at robots, but as mentioned gantry loaders would work well if we can find one with the right capacity. This would allow our current staff to run more machines, not necessarily outproduce them and running a few extra hours at the end of the shift would be a bonus too.
We also want to do whatever we can to minimize the footprint required to make everything.

Parts are cut in 3 ops front/back/front to keep them flat, some parts are 11" dia., 1/2" thick and lacking in any geometry to keep them rigid so they warp if we do too much cutting or have too high chuck pressure. Because they flip like that I didn't envision a part cutting in each spindle, the second spindle is just to automate the flip. That Takisawa gantry loader/flipper would be perfect on a single spindle machine, or maybe we could have two spindles running the same things fed by the one loader.
 
We are looking at add equipment. We could either add a more universal machine(s) and keep doing the same mix of all size parts in all machines, or we could get something a bit more specialized and dedicate it to our most popular 9" and/or 10" applications and keep the frequent changeovers to the old machines.

Good help is pretty hard to find ATM. We have been looking at robots, but as mentioned gantry loaders would work well if we can find one with the right capacity. This would allow our current staff to run more machines, not necessarily outproduce them and running a few extra hours at the end of the shift would be a bonus too.
We also want to do whatever we can to minimize the footprint required to make everything.

Parts are cut in 3 ops front/back/front to keep them flat, some parts are 11" dia., 1/2" thick and lacking in any geometry to keep them rigid so they warp if we do too much cutting or have too high chuck pressure.
Because they flip like that I didn't envision a part cutting in each spindle, the second spindle is just to automate the flip. That Takisawa gantry loader/flipper would be perfect on a single spindle machine, or maybe we could have two spindles running the same things fed by the one loader.


I'm really not following this part?

From what you have said prior, if you really need to doo it in 3's, I would expect that you would take the first cut on a 2x lathe, and then place THAT blank on the gantry of the Yamazaki's gantry.
I kan't imagine using the sub of a "Dual Turn" (actual Mazak model I believe?) just for the porpoise of using it as a staging chuck. :eek:


Also - I think that it is Amerisieki (?) that builds similar machines to the Tak mentioned.
I prolly have a pic on my camera from The Tool Show if you want more info.
I have no experience with either.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
I meant there would not be two parts being cut in both spindles simultaneously as was suggested in the twin turret twin spindle multiplex. We would have one part in the machine at a time, swapping between the two spindles cutting the front, back and front again.
We aren't trying to double throughput be replacing our current setup with one machine, the hope was to double it by adding a machine that can eliminate some of the operator handling steps and do runs of longer parts unattended.
I will look into the Muratec and Amerisieki as well.
 
But ... why on Earth not?

You would consider buying a twin, and not use 1/2 of it for some reason? :skep:


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
We aren't trying to double throughput be replacing our current setup with one machine, the hope was to double it by adding a machine that can eliminate some of the operator handling steps and do runs of longer parts unattended.

You might not have much of a choice because single turret machines are often fairly limited in the max size of chuck you can mount on the sub. The largest subspindle chuck I've seen on a single turret machine was a 10" on a special long bed Mazak Quickturn.

More likely you'd be looking at a twin turret or one of those transfer machines linked above. They'll be costlier, so to justify that, you'll definitely want to be running both sides at the same time.
 
You might not have much of a choice because single turret machines are often fairly limited in the max size of chuck you can mount on the sub. The largest subspindle chuck I've seen on a single turret machine was a 10" on a special long bed Mazak Quickturn.

More likely you'd be looking at a twin turret or one of those transfer machines linked above. They'll be costlier, so to justify that, you'll definitely want to be running both sides at the same time.

Mori was pitching the NLX2500SY/700, which looks like more of the standard DS lathe.

So run the OP1 in a different machine, and OP2/3 in the new high zoot machine?

We don't have a lot of (or really any) experience with this level of high volume production/automation equipment so it makes sense we may need to adjust our process to suit this next level of equipment. Will be a big step up from the 'ol Haas SL for sure.
 
Well, doo Op 1 or 3, whichever is the quickest, or maybe the furthest in cycle time from Op2.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Mori was pitching the NLX2500SY/700, which looks like more of the standard DS lathe.

So run the OP1 in a different machine, and OP2/3 in the new high zoot machine?

We don't have a lot of (or really any) experience with this level of high volume production/automation equipment so it makes sense we may need to adjust our process to suit this next level of equipment. Will be a big step up from the 'ol Haas SL for sure.

We have 3 NLX machines with two more on order. Absolutely bullet-proof metal eating monsters.
 
Well, doo Op 1 or 3, whichever is the quickest, or maybe the furthest in cycle time from Op2.

Well that brings me back to the original question...
We can probably buy 2 more ST25s and keep running parts 3 ops with a robot or gantry loader/flipper for the same price (or probably a lot less) than one of those multi spindle/multi turret machines (that would still need an extra machine to run op1), so what is the advantage to at that point? The parts are simple, if they needed lots of live tool work or features to align from front to back it seems the obvious choice, but now that DS machine seems overkill to me.

We don't have experience with these kinds of machines so maybe there are some obvious benefits I'm missing.
 
One thing about gantry machines, if you think you are going to save time because you wont have to load the parts in the chuck, wrong. You still have to load and unload them from the carousel. We still spend a ton of time handling parts.
 
This is why I say Mazak Multiplex. It is not a subspindle. They are 2 full-sized, main spindles. It is essentially 2 three or four axis lathes mirrored into a 6 or 8 axis lathe. Quite impressive.

i assume that machine is also in the $500k+ range? Hard pill to swallow for just trying to up prpoduction numbers. Dedicated long term project to optimize maybe. But you can beat to death quite a few Haas and replace new when worn out for that price.
 
Well that brings me back to the original question...
We can probably buy 2 more ST25s and keep running parts 3 ops with a robot or gantry loader/flipper for the same price (or probably a lot less) than one of those multi spindle/multi turret machines (that would still need an extra machine to run op1), so what is the advantage to at that point? The parts are simple, if they needed lots of live tool work or features to align from front to back it seems the obvious choice, but now that DS machine seems overkill to me.

We don't have experience with these kinds of machines so maybe there are some obvious benefits I'm missing.


Maybe not.
We're not looking at your parts or process.

You asked about duals.


But the dual spindle machine solve 1/2 of your WIP and load/unload concerns.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Mori was pitching the NLX2500SY/700, which looks like more of the standard DS lathe.

So run the OP1 in a different machine, and OP2/3 in the new high zoot machine?
Mori might be thinking same as me... Why can't you do this one-and-done on an NLX2500? It could do turning and milling on both sides.
 
One thing about gantry machines, if you think you are going to save time because you wont have to load the parts in the chuck, wrong. You still have to load and unload them from the carousel. We still spend a ton of time handling parts.

Not while the spindle is waiting you don't.
 
I programmed and ran Nakamura TW-20s a few years back. It's too small for you but I looked and they have a TW-30 with twin spindles, twin turrets and 10" chucks.
The TW-20s ran and ran with few problems. I don't know the price difference between them and Mazaks. Worth a look?
 








 
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