Anybody make basic 2 axis dual spindle lathe with 10" chucks?

[GiroDyno]

We have a pair of Haas DS30 machines, both have live tooling, one has a Y-axis, we "deleted" the live tooling so we can clear 10" diameter parts but it is a tight fit. These were our first foray into dual spindle machines and once we figured out our process we have seen huge gains in throughput thanks to the automation of spindle swaps, unfortunately the machines themselves are plagued by numerous design flaws including terrible chip/coolant management, a gutless second spindle, and the Y-axis means the turret is as stable as a wet noodle...
I'm trying to find some contenders to replace these machines as we run into more and more limitations but everything I see is some high-zoot Y-axis live tool wonder machine with a price to match, I'm wondering if anybody makes a plain-Jane X/Z axis dual spindle lathe?

Another option would be two chuckers and a robot but I prefer to keep parts inside the machine until they're complete if possible.

Parts are aluminum, 7-11" diameter (11" can't fit on our DS, would be nice for the new machine though) thickest stock would be just under 3"

 

[Digital Factory]

Does not exist.

I searched for something similar a few years back. The only machines with 10" subspindles were a long bed Mazak and various 750K+ millturns. For whatever reason, the vast majority of machines with subspindles stop at 8" chucks.

A robot's the way to go anyway. A subspindle doubles your walkaway time, but a robot load will 50X it. The implementation is significantly more time consuming though.

 

[GiroDyno]

We have a faux-chucker ST25 that has no sub/tailstock that runs our 11" parts. We could easily park a robot in front of that and proof out the idea or running a robot (the parking of the robot part is easy, not the rest of it!) to manage part flips instead of a dual spindle but that is a whole 'nother can of worms I don't want to open right now.
There is a Fanuc robot collecting dust in my office, but it didn't eat enough Wheaties and can't wrangle the bigger slugs we load into that machine.

 

[Mtndew]

Does not exist.

This baffles me. When we were searching for a new lathe looking at sub spindle machines, and they're all 6-8" max.
You'd think someone would wise up and make one that has dual 12's, each with 30hp.
Even if it has no milling capabilities it would sell like hotcakes if it was $200k-$250k

 

[EmGo]

Will only work if the parts are suitable but I've seen a bunch of lathes where the chuck is very narrow, the part is held in the middle and both ends have turrets full of tools. Mostly that seems to be good for tubing and shaft-type parts but if the fu shits, wear it ?

 

[Comatose]

It's basic geometry. The turret has to mount somewhere. Clearance in front of the turret is a piece of cake, it's just air. But clearance behind the turret is tough. You either make your turret a huge diameter relative to its mount, which hurts rigidity, or make the holders super long, which hurts rigidity. Holders have to reach at a minimum the centerline of the part.

Of course, if it is a dual spindle, dual turret, top turret machine that doesn't do back-working, then that problem goes away, but the machine gets extremely long, because now you need the space of both turrets, plus both sets of tooling, plus both workpieces between the resting spot of the chucks.

If it is a dual spindle, one top and one bottom turret machine, you could have one turret set for front working and one for back-working with matched size chucks. But now you can't do any of the good bottom turret tricks like pinch turning.

No great way out of all that with standard geometry machines. Takisawa's TT line has dual matching chucks, but uses a gantry loader to move between them, not a subspindle.

 

[EmGo]

^ Ain't no free lunch in Machineryland

 

[Ox]

Be very carefull of the long-term effects of Wheaties.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Mtndew]

Takisawa's TT line has dual matching chucks, but uses a gantry loader to move between them, not a subspindle.

I believe Okuma has those as well. Pretty slick machines.
Chuck faces the operator. That would take a while to get used to lol.

 

[Ox]

That would seem to take much longer to hand-off, as it essentially needs to hand off 2wice for that to work.

However - the gantry is there and can load and unload everybody while it's there.
Bot included, and it would seem that a gantry would be better for a lathe anyhow?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[EmGo]

I believe Okuma has those as well. Pretty slick machines.
Chuck faces the operator. That would take a while to get used to lol.

Someone in the US made those, back before either Tak or Okume was a twinkle in anyone's eye. New Britain, perhaps ?

Come to think of it, there were dual-chuck, two spindle verticals for this size range part. This was back before robots but principle the same, do side one in left side, flip part into right side for side two. A simple flipper bot would accomplish that now, and save a bunch of floor space and be more flexible as well.

Maybe look into that ? Is anybody still rebuilding old New Britains and Motch'es ?

 

[Digital Factory]

Takisawa's TT line has dual matching chucks, but uses a gantry loader to move between them, not a subspindle.

That was the first machine I thought of. Then I looked up their largest, which is the TT2600, but the max part size it can handle is 200mm.

Looking at the Mazak website, it looks like they now have a shorter bed version, the QTN 350MSY. https://www.mazakusa.com/machines/quick-turn-350msy/ with 26" bed/part length. It comes with milling and Y axis though. No way around that.

 

[Ox]

S&M is the major rebuilder of New Britains.

National Acme built many "chuckers" back-in-the-day. (Model "RPA")
I have never been around a running one, and I don't see hardly any come up for sale anymore either.
6 spindle or not, I don't think that they compete well with the CNC lathes.
The start and stop just doesn't seem like a good cycle for the KW meter if nothing else.
???


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[SeymourDumore]

Don't know your budget, but a different approach could be something what Emag offers.

Multi-Spindle Machines from EMAG: VL 3 DUO for Chucked Parts up to 150 mm.

The EMAG VL 3 DUO multi-spindle machine, an efficient twin-spindle cnc machine solution for chucked parts, expands the product portfolio of the successful VL vertical turning machine line.

www.emag.com

Yes, I know the linked machine is only 6" but ... I think they do have larger ones.
Also, their single spindle machines can be set up in a side by side configuration where one hands the finished op to the other using similar conveyors as that in the vid.

 

[ManualEd]

Mazak makes a Multiplex with Dual 10" 35hp 4kRPM spindles, nearly 17" turning diameter.

It may or may not meet your definition of basic.

 

[Namchien]

I think Nakamura tome have machine for you. https://www.nakamura-tome.com/products/tw-30/

 

[GiroDyno]

I remember looking at the Takisawa TT and similar machines when we first started looking for dual spindles, I think the high purchase price and lack of resale value scared us off but now that we have seen the increased throughput it might be worth revisiting.

Another hiccup is that after running these parts for years we found that a cleanup op on the stock is essential for minimizing runout especially on the big OD/thin parts that don't have naturally stiff geometry. I load parts into the sub for cleanup, transfer to main for majority material removal, then back to sub for final machining. I'm sure its possible, but I have a hard time envisioning how the gantry loader type machines wrangle that.

I could also park the ST25 in front and have it just prep stock while the high dollar machine does the real work. A robot debur/sanding station or router table bight even be able to the prep. Even a Tormach could do the cleanup op if there was one big enough (I guess that's pretty much what the Haas is)

 

[EmGo]

giddiup little robots ?

https://files.catbox.moe/7a3b52.mp4

S&M is the major rebuilder of New Britains.
National Acme built many "chuckers" back-in-the-day. (Model "RPA")

I was thinking of the vtl ones. Motch did them for sure, I thought New Britain also ? but maybe not.

Come to think of it, one easy way would be two 10" chuck vtls with a robot.

 

[wmpy]

Yama Seiki GTS-260X is very similar to the Nak mentioned above. Two 10" chucks, two turrets, no live tooling.

 

[EmGo]

Parts are aluminum, 7-11" diameter (11" can't fit on our DS, would be nice for the new machine though) thickest stock would be just under 3"

Do you need the 10" chuck or just the 11" swing ? Cuz the mazak dualturn has 8" chucks but swings almost 13" and has built-in part flipping. And turns the same 320mm dia as it swings (sometimes they don't) ...

Save ya a second searching ...

DUAL TURN 200

The DUAL TURN 200 is a twin-spindle, twin-turret turning center designed for high productivity.

www.mazakusa.com

It's hell on coolant cloud but jaws can overhang the chuck. You know that but thought I'd mention it ... with 12.8" of swing you'd even have enough room for a half inch or maybe 5/8 of jaw ...