Electric Bill just went up 2.5x in 1 month

[Pathogen]

You need a better grasp of history.

Inflation rate in Pre-ww2 germany - Google Search

"The ratio of the German price index in November 1923 to the price index in August 1922—just fifteen months earlier—was 1.02 × 1010. This huge number amounts to a monthly inflation rate of 322 percent. On average, prices quadrupled each month during the sixteen months of hyperinflation."

US inflation for 2022:
7.1%

"The annual inflation rate for the United States is 7.1% for the 12 months ended November 2022 after rising 7.7% previously, according to U.S. Labor Department data published Dec. 13."

7.1%, what a pipe dream, reality check please

 

[john.k]

The usual method was a synchronous motor running either a compressor or a big DC generator for welding ........power utility s penalize usage that has a big lagging power factor , discharge lights being one of the worst........resistive loads like heaters are OK

 

[Milland]

7.1%, what a pipe dream, reality check please

I guess you'll believe what you wish, how wonderful. Watch out for the edge of the Earth though, dragons be there, just waiting to steal your magic beans.

 

[rdenney]

I guess you'll believe what you wish, how wonderful. Watch out for the edge of the Earth though, dragons be there, just waiting to steal your magic beans.

It depends on what you are buying. Many categories have seen price increases much higher than the average inflation rate.

Of course, those are still not as high as the hyperinflation in Germany during the Depression. But I recognize hyperbole as a routine rhetorical device.

Rick "food is one of those categories" Denney

 

[Milland]

Of course, those are still not as high as the hyperinflation in Germany during the Depression. But I recognize hyperbole as a routine rhetorical device.

Rick "food is one of those categories" Denney

When used with some wisdom. When used with no regard at all for reality, it's a blunt object with zero mass.

 

[Mr. Atoz]

7.1%, what a pipe dream, reality check please

Okay, so what was it ?

 

[rdenney]

When used with some wisdom. When used with no regard at all for reality, it's a blunt object with zero mass.

Sure, but it didn't seem to me that he was actually making the case that inflation was really as high the German hyperinflation, or that being so (even within an order of magnitude) was even that important to his point.

He did make the point that the CPI is a fantasy in many categories. Food in 2022 saw inflation at least 50% higher than the CPI, for example, according to the USDA.

Rick "but we all take different things from what people say" Denney

 

[aarongough]

In regards to the 'large UPS' idea: I am actually setting up something similar to that in order to get 3 phase in my new shop... The house has 200A single phase, with 100A split off to the shop. I priced out phase converters (rotary and digital) and the prices were pretty high, and the idle demand of a rotary makes it not worth it.

Instead I am buying 3x 'hybrid' solar inverters, which will link together to produce 3 phase. 3x batteries as well (Lithium Iron Phosphate), I will use the 100A single phase input basically as a battery charger.

The 3 inverters can provide about 55A continuous 240V 3 PH, with surge capacity up to 110A for 5 seconds. Battery capacity will be about 15Kw/H (to begin with). The inverter capacity can be increased by running extra inverters in parallel, up to 9 inverters total (3 series, 3 parallel), for a total of about 165A continuous 240V 3PH. My math is a little loose here but should be 'close enough'.

Obviously with 'only' a 100A 'battery charger' I won't be able to actually pull that kind of power continuously, but I also have about 24kW of used solar panels out of a solar farm for $55 each (110 panels total) so once they are installed and fed into the solar charge controllers on the inverters I will have much more capacity. I can also expand the battery bank up to 80 Kw/h simply by adding on additional packs in parallel...

Total cost for a DIY system like this is about USD$10k, and I feel like energy prices are getting to the point where it's becoming a much more attractive option.

For me going this route was a no-brainer as I would have spent around $6k just on a phase converter option and ended up with no backup power and no ability to tie in solar... In the long run I hope to run the shop 100% off solar, we'll see how it goes.

 

[cyanidekid]

It depends on what you are buying. Many categories have seen price increases much higher than the average inflation rate.

Of course, those are still not as high as the hyperinflation in Germany during the Depression. But I recognize hyperbole as a routine rhetorical device.

Rick "food is one of those categories" Denney

when discourse goes way, way beyond hyperbole - exaggeration to make a point- and becomes wild insane fantasy and a significant portion of the population absolutely believes an alternate reality, well that's bad. that's where we are in the USA.

 

[Milland]

Aaron, that sounds very interesting! Let us know how it works out for you, maybe with a new thread showing the "ins and outs" of your setup.

 

[cyanidekid]

Aaron, that sounds very interesting! Let us know how it works out for you, maybe with a new thread showing the "ins and outs" of your setup.

I second that!
some versions of the future power grid feature this exactly, hyper distributed storage and load leveling

 

[Stirling]

That's not how a phase perfect works. It's a static converter - no motor. I would say that the overload prevention on the phase perfect would absolutely prevent a momentary spike from pulling off the grid. They hold a charge of several seconds at something like 300% their rated capacity.

The phase perfect would not help with a sustained load that lasts for more than a few seconds.

I think it’s 400% on my pp
I believe it smooths load demands IMO
I run a “20hp” unit feeding 2 “20hp” machines. Lathe and a mill.
Lathe can be cutting respectably hard and the mill has no problems accel to 10,000 with all the servos and coolant pumps running. Lights don’t even brown/flicker in my house. 100amp 240 single phase running the compressor and both machines.
I assumed I’d have power issues and have to plan accordingly but it seems the pp smooths it out with all when capacitors

 

[Strostkovy]

You would think the price of electricity would matter but it doesn't. PG&E rates in California have been going up constantly for over a decade, and is up to 45 cents per kilowatt hour. We pay $5k per month in power for not that big of a shop, and $300 per month for a residence is common. People just use the heat and AC and appliances less. The people who can't get government assistance or evicted.
Kind of the same deal with $6+ gas prices.
There are already so many housing issues I don't expect electricity cost to be anything other than a small factor in the ongoing housing crisis.

 

[EmGo]

I guess you'll believe what you wish, how wonderful. Watch out for the edge of the Earth though, dragons be there, just waiting to steal your magic beans.

He's absolutely right, the 7.1% is a figment of imagination (actually a figment of dishonest manipulation). Been through this with janco, now you're taking up the banner, I see ...

If you count the things that people need to live, such as food, housing, gasoline, and so on, then inflation is up way more than 7%. Everything I saw was in the 25% to 50% range. Just go to the grocery store, pay the rent, fill your gas tank.

Now if you include the price for bigscreen teevees, vacations at club med and perhaps no-name leptop computers, then maybe. But I still doubt it.

And don't forget the cute trick they have of making substitutions - such as hamburger for top sirloin. "Well, they're both beef !"

Inflation does not equal the weimar republic, agreed, but it sure as hell ain't no 7%.

 

[BT Fabrication]

In regards to the 'large UPS' idea: I am actually setting up something similar to that in order to get 3 phase in my new shop... The house has 200A single phase, with 100A split off to the shop. I priced out phase converters (rotary and digital) and the prices were pretty high, and the idle demand of a rotary makes it not worth it.

Instead I am buying 3x 'hybrid' solar inverters, which will link together to produce 3 phase. 3x batteries as well (Lithium Iron Phosphate), I will use the 100A single phase input basically as a battery charger.

The 3 inverters can provide about 55A continuous 240V 3 PH, with surge capacity up to 110A for 5 seconds. Battery capacity will be about 15Kw/H (to begin with). The inverter capacity can be increased by running extra inverters in parallel, up to 9 inverters total (3 series, 3 parallel), for a total of about 165A continuous 240V 3PH. My math is a little loose here but should be 'close enough'.

Obviously with 'only' a 100A 'battery charger' I won't be able to actually pull that kind of power continuously, but I also have about 24kW of used solar panels out of a solar farm for $55 each (110 panels total) so once they are installed and fed into the solar charge controllers on the inverters I will have much more capacity. I can also expand the battery bank up to 80 Kw/h simply by adding on additional packs in parallel...

Total cost for a DIY system like this is about USD$10k, and I feel like energy prices are getting to the point where it's becoming a much more attractive option.

For me going this route was a no-brainer as I would have spent around $6k just on a phase converter option and ended up with no backup power and no ability to tie in solar... In the long run I hope to run the shop 100% off solar, we'll see how it goes.

Seems interesting enough for what you have an idea for, and seems really cheap for what you have going together.
Ive recently upgraded my house/shop and both have 200A as it was most cost effective, 400A would have cost me 15K to upgrade and could have got 3 phase but would have been closer to 30-40 grand to run in and more expensive min charge per month.
keep us in the loop, would love to see it in person or on here and see how it all works.

 

[standardparts]

In regards to the 'large UPS' idea: I am actually setting up something similar to that in order to get 3 phase in my new shop... The house has 200A single phase, with 100A split off to the shop. I priced out phase converters (rotary and digital) and the prices were pretty high, and the idle demand of a rotary makes it not worth it.

Instead I am buying 3x 'hybrid' solar inverters, which will link together to produce 3 phase. 3x batteries as well (Lithium Iron Phosphate), I will use the 100A single phase input basically as a battery charger.

The 3 inverters can provide about 55A continuous 240V 3 PH, with surge capacity up to 110A for 5 seconds. Battery capacity will be about 15Kw/H (to begin with). The inverter capacity can be increased by running extra inverters in parallel, up to 9 inverters total (3 series, 3 parallel), for a total of about 165A continuous 240V 3PH. My math is a little loose here but should be 'close enough'.

Obviously with 'only' a 100A 'battery charger' I won't be able to actually pull that kind of power continuously, but I also have about 24kW of used solar panels out of a solar farm for $55 each (110 panels total) so once they are installed and fed into the solar charge controllers on the inverters I will have much more capacity. I can also expand the battery bank up to 80 Kw/h simply by adding on additional packs in parallel...

Total cost for a DIY system like this is about USD$10k, and I feel like energy prices are getting to the point where it's becoming a much more attractive option.

For me going this route was a no-brainer as I would have spent around $6k just on a phase converter option and ended up with no backup power and no ability to tie in solar... In the long run I hope to run the shop 100% off solar, we'll see how it goes.

110 solar panels....How much area, and where will they be installed, and how much life remains with the used panels?

 

[Ox]

He's absolutely right, the 7.1% is a figment of imagination (actually a figment of dishonest manipulation). Been through this with janco, now you're taking up the banner, I see ...

If you count the things that people need to live, such as food, housing, gasoline, and so on, then inflation is up way more than 7%. Everything I saw was in the 25% to 50% range. Just go to the grocery store, pay the rent, fill your gas tank.

Now if you include the price for bigscreen teevees, vacations at club med and perhaps no-name leptop computers, then maybe. But I still doubt it.

And don't forget the cute trick they have of making substitutions - such as hamburger for top sirloin. "Well, they're both beef !"

Inflation does not equal the weimar republic, agreed, but it sure as hell ain't no 7%.

EG:

Not related to the post above, but I've not crossed paths with you recently, and seen you here. I have been thinking of you lately, as the news about China having more troubles with the Wuhan Institute for Biological Warfare Flu is abounding. While most of the rest of the world has it down to a common thing now, yet prolly 2 years ago now that you was spouting how China had really Marshal Law'd the problem out of existence. Praises for their Marshal Law!

And then - here we are - 2 yrs later, and not only have they not licked it, but they are trying to shut the joint down aggin.

What say you?


-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[aarongough]

110 solar panels....How much area, and where will they be installed, and how much life remains with the used panels?

The panels are 17.3 sq feet each, so 110 of them = 1,903 sq feet, plus extra to allow for a little space between the panels for mounting and so on. I have one really large south sloping roof on the shop that will fit about 50 panels. The remainder will go on other roof surfaces or on the house which will also get its own inverters and batteries sometime in the distant future. I probably over-bought on the panels, but they were so inexpensive it seemed wise to just overdo it!

110 panels takes up a LOT of roof space lol.

Part of the work I did on the 'new' workshop building was reinforcing an area of the roof that was terribly 'under built'. 2x10" lumber on 24" centers spanning 20 feet... In an area that gets 62lbs / sq foot of snow load?? No thanks, you can bet I reinforced the hell out of that! Sistered in an extra 2x10 on every joist, and then built an engineered beam to support the mid-point of that span.

The actual roof loading for solar is not bad at all. I worked it out to be about 5 lbs per square foot including racking, insignificant compared to snow loads here, so any roof designed with any amount of safety margin should be good for the panels. Plus there's the benefit that panels on a sloped roof are really good at shedding snow, so the total loading is probably way lower than without the panels!

Most solar panels are warrantied to have about 85% output after 25 years. But usually they do better than that. Even if we assume the worst case that they're already at only 85% output. Their capacity is still 195 watts each which over 110 panels is still 21.5 kw, so definitely worth it I think!

 

[EmGo]

What say you?

Only back a month so can't talk about the two months shanghai lockup but ...

The original program worked well, we were basically virus-free for more than a year. However, the problem (someone mentioned this at the time but I forgot to bookmark the article) was always going to be re-integrating with the world. That's compounded by the fact that a lot of people, especially the older weaker ones, believe in that "traditional medicine" stuff (aka sympathetic magic). A lot of them are also not very mobile, so even if they did go for vaccinations, they'd have a hard time. And the Chinese vaccine was about as effective as the Johnson & Johnson one, less good than the moderna one.

So they have a very large population of frail people that have not been vaccinated. When Hong Kong opened up (I think they ran it through there as a test first) people were dropping like flies. They had a lot of older dead people.

China respects older people. In fact they aren't that far away from ancestor-worship. It's possible that a lot of people on PM will be surprised when you hit, say, 70 and find out how important you are (not) to society.

Anyway, China ain't like that, so they have had to walk a narrow line between loosening restrictions and having a lot of dead people.

About the crap I was reading recently ... my house is smack-ass between wanhangdu lu and wulumuqi lu. Wulumuqi lu is where the AP was claiming there were massive protests. Umm, someone shoulda told me. I'da looked out the window and seen it, maybe. There wasn't doodly-shit here. There are no journalists in China at this time, no matter what they claim (look at the datelines, all lies). No J visas have been issued. I had a rather hard time getting permission to come back, and that's with a registered company. There are no journalists here to see those events, most of it is madeup fantasies or maybe gossip they heard from their cousin's girlfriend who has a sister in guangzhou ...

The requirements themselves have been scaling back over the past six months, in a sem-orderly way. Orderly for China, anyhow. The place is sort of goofy. First they re-issued old visas and residence permits, then some new ones, then dropped back on the pcr test requirements, then dropped back on days of quarantine. I had to do 8 days but that was lucky, a short time before that it ws ten and before that 14, so they have been systematically reducing restrictions. We did have to take tests every three days (which was not a big deal, took five minutes and no cost) but just yesterday they dropped that back to only important buildings. Some other cities had dropped it earlier.

One good thing, with about thirty covid tests I can be pretty sure I don't have it I'm still taking them - they are free and I want to collect as many test sites as possible, heck, some people will collect anything, right ? Think I'm up to about ten now, if I search more, maybe can get another five before they drop the program entirely.

It was sort of a pain in the butt to have to scan your health code going into buildings and stuff but considering the number of deaths, that's fine by me. I can take a little hassle if it saves some older person from getting sick.

As you can imagine, numbers of cases are going up, a friend says about 8 out of thirty children are home sick out of her kid's class, but that jump in numbers is to be expected, no way around it as far as I can see. If nothing else, they've eased into it about as well as anyone could, seems like. At this point at least it's not deadly for most people, like it was in the beginning. Lots of frail people will go but ... they did the best they could to avoid that, at least. We all gotta go sometime, I guess.

And that's all I know ..... except I am safe ! have proof ! really, dad, I'll have her back by midnight

 

[BoxcarPete]

The panels are 17.3 sq feet each, so 110 of them = 1,903 sq feet, plus extra to allow for a little space between the panels for mounting and so on. I have one really large south sloping roof on the shop that will fit about 50 panels. The remainder will go on other roof surfaces or on the house which will also get its own inverters and batteries sometime in the distant future. I probably over-bought on the panels, but they were so inexpensive it seemed wise to just overdo it!

110 panels takes up a LOT of roof space lol.

Part of the work I did on the 'new' workshop building was reinforcing an area of the roof that was terribly 'under built'. 2x10" lumber on 24" centers spanning 20 feet... In an area that gets 62lbs / sq foot of snow load?? No thanks, you can bet I reinforced the hell out of that! Sistered in an extra 2x10 on every joist, and then built an engineered beam to support the mid-point of that span.

The actual roof loading for solar is not bad at all. I worked it out to be about 5 lbs per square foot including racking, insignificant compared to snow loads here, so any roof designed with any amount of safety margin should be good for the panels. Plus there's the benefit that panels on a sloped roof are really good at shedding snow, so the total loading is probably way lower than without the panels!

Most solar panels are warrantied to have about 85% output after 25 years. But usually they do better than that. Even if we assume the worst case that they're already at only 85% output. Their capacity is still 195 watts each which over 110 panels is still 21.5 kw, so definitely worth it I think!

If I had bought extra by way of a screaming good deal, I'd put my fifty on the roof, a couple dozen on a rack just to the south of the same building (if you have the clear space for it), and put the rest in storage. Panels drop out, on our 24kW system about 1-2 per year, and mind your inverter setup. You don't want to lose a phase in the shop if a bird poops on the wrong cell of one of your panels or you drop one for some other reason.

But other than that, go for it! I hope to hear of your success.