help with Reed-Prentice lathe valuation/purchase

[DrReid]

I'm new here, not a machinist yet, and getting ready to buy my first lathe, a 1942 RP 14x30 with U.S. Navy stamp. I wanted old American iron, and this seems to fit the bill, but for reasons below I'm struggling with a $4250 asking price.

Lathe was 'donor' machine on a WWII repair barge, and evidently saw very little use in the war and since. When owner got it, he disassembled, cleaned, painted, reconditioned. I inspected: headstock gears appear new and not even worn in, ways look good (no wear except minor galling in a few places), under power (240, new single phase motor). When powered, all spindle speeds seem to work perfectly. Manual carriage travel and cross slide are butter smooth. Comes with 3- and 4-jaw chucks, tailstock (smooth operation, bore pristine), drills, reamers, HSS blanks, QCTP, tool holders, and drill chucks. Missing change gear cover. A taper attachment is missing the bed clamp. Compound is missing hand crank. I found a replacement for each of these on another nearby lathe. No steady or follow rests.

Main issues that I found: feed rod didn't engage (via "castle nut clutch plate"), so I worked with seller to re-establish feed rod power. Power cross slide then worked, but longitudinal feed still did not, we suspect from a sheared key or pin in the apron. Should be straightforward fix, I believe. Assuming success, the lathe should be at 100%.

Question: with these facts in mind, is the $4250 asking price reasonable for the lathe and tooling package? If not, what would be more reasonable? (N.B. I walked away from a 1945 RP (same size; less tooling) at $1000 because some head stock gears were chipped and missing teeth -- beyond my current ability to fix.) Any facts that I'm overlooking?

 

[john.k]

Id think $2000 would be too much for such an old lathe............the seller is dreaming if he imagines its worth $4000+......It will also not have a hardened bed ,which in my experience is a big price point in lathes.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

You did not tell us what is in the tooling package, with enough tooling it might be worth that. Price sounds a bit high, but I'm no expert on those. Pictures?

Edit: Is this it?https://offerup.com/item/detail/e2ae94e4-6c4e-3952-8f2e-b5f77ec2f9ba

 

[Joe Michaels]

$4250 is way too high a price for this type lathe. R-P built good workhorses, but suffered from softer bedways. I paid 800 bucks some years back for a 16" R-P geared head lathe built in 1952 with US Government acceptance stamp (used at Picatinny Arsenal in NJ). With the lathe I got:
-3 jaw chuck
-4 jaw chuck
-faceplate
-steady rest
The lathe had been used fairly hard but is still a very serviceable lathe capable of getting out good work if you know how to work on a worn older machine.
It does have the taper attachment.

I do not know what the availability of used older US made machine tools is out in the OP's neck of the woods. Even if he had to haul a lathe from some other area of the USA, I think he would be money ahead. I'd say 1200-1500 bucks would be about right for an old R-P, even with the tooling the seller includes.

R=P built a very solid and basic geared head engine lathe. It was a fairly generic design used in the 1930's-50's, and the "War Production Board" engine lathes- whether Monarch, Lodge & Shipley, and a few others were fairly close in size and general appearance. These machine tools are user friendly. I can attest to the R-P I bought being an absolute bear of a lathe. I recall taking hogging cuts on some chrome-nickel alloy steel, maybe 6" diameter. I kept going deeper with each cut, and was hogging off around 1/2" of steel ( 1/4" off each side of the work) under heavy feed with a HSS toolbit. The limiting factor was the lantern toolpost. The toolholder acted as a lever and turned the toolpost when the cuts got too heavy. Otherwise, the R-P did not shudder nor was there any chatter. As I said, these lathes were workhorses. I recall my 16" R-P weighs somewhere around 5500 lbs.

Bear in mind these older engine lathes did not have too high a top spindle rpm. They were designed in an era when High Speed Steel tools were the common thing, and maybe cemented carbide tools were used. These lathes were built for heavy work. If a person wants a lathe as an entry level machine tool, or has ideas of using it for fun and hobby purposes, this may not be a good choice. Building a P-M Research steam engine from castings on a 16" R-P lathe could be done, but it would be a challenge to handle work 1/8" diameter and the like. If you are recutting valve discs for large globe valves, or refacing engine flywheels and the like, this lathe is the ticket.

$4250 seems like a price for a much finer lathe like maybe a fully tooled Colchester, Wacheon, or similar with metric threading capabilities.

 

[DrReid]

You did not tell us what is in the tooling package, with enough tooling it might be worth that. Price sounds a bit high, but I'm no expert on those. Pictures?

Edit: Is this it?https://offerup.com/item/detail/e2ae94e4-6c4e-3952-8f2e-b5f77ec2f9ba

That's it. I didn't want to give too many pointers to it, but I suppose it won't be snatched up at this price.

I gave a short list of tooling in my original post. Was that too sparse a description?

 

[DrReid]

$4250 is way too high a price for this type lathe. R-P built good workhorses, but suffered from softer bedways. I paid 800 bucks some years back for a 16" R-P geared head lathe built in 1952 with US Government acceptance stamp (used at Picatinny Arsenal in NJ). With the lathe I got:
-3 jaw chuck
-4 jaw chuck
-faceplate
-steady rest
The lathe had been used fairly hard but is still a very serviceable lathe capable of getting out good work if you know how to work on a worn older machine.
It does have the taper attachment.

I do not know what the availability of used older US made machine tools is out in the OP's neck of the woods. Even if he had to haul a lathe from some other area of the USA, I think he would be money ahead. I'd say 1200-1500 bucks would be about right for an old R-P, even with the tooling the seller includes.

R=P built a very solid and basic geared head engine lathe. It was a fairly generic design used in the 1930's-50's, and the "War Production Board" engine lathes- whether Monarch, Lodge & Shipley, and a few others were fairly close in size and general appearance. These machine tools are user friendly. I can attest to the R-P I bought being an absolute bear of a lathe. I recall taking hogging cuts on some chrome-nickel alloy steel, maybe 6" diameter. I kept going deeper with each cut, and was hogging off around 1/2" of steel ( 1/4" off each side of the work) under heavy feed with a HSS toolbit. The limiting factor was the lantern toolpost. The toolholder acted as a lever and turned the toolpost when the cuts got too heavy. Otherwise, the R-P did not shudder nor was there any chatter. As I said, these lathes were workhorses. I recall my 16" R-P weighs somewhere around 5500 lbs.

Bear in mind these older engine lathes did not have too high a top spindle rpm. They were designed in an era when High Speed Steel tools were the common thing, and maybe cemented carbide tools were used. These lathes were built for heavy work. If a person wants a lathe as an entry level machine tool, or has ideas of using it for fun and hobby purposes, this may not be a good choice. Building a P-M Research steam engine from castings on a 16" R-P lathe could be done, but it would be a challenge to handle work 1/8" diameter and the like. If you are recutting valve discs for large globe valves, or refacing engine flywheels and the like, this lathe is the ticket.

$4250 seems like a price for a much finer lathe like maybe a fully tooled Colchester, Wacheon, or similar with metric threading capabilities.

Thanks very much, Joe. That was helpful. I'm a hobbyist, yes, but not building small models or trinkets. I think the smallest D I might turn is around 1", mild steel primarily. Seller said he has turned smaller, but I've not seen his work.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

That's it. I didn't want to give too many pointers to it, but I suppose it won't be snatched up at this price.

I gave a short list of tooling in my original post. Was that too sparse a description?

Sorry about that, guess my brain skipped that line. I googled 1942 Reed and Prentice lathe to see what one looked like and that was the first hit, price and location matched, so I figured that was it. Not a bad looking machine, just priced a little high imho, but if you want vintage, and don't want to start with a basket case...... I'm not keen on the color, but that is subjective, I like my machines grey, and lathe chucks evapo-black, so I don't have room to talk

 

[DrReid]

Sorry about that, guess my brain skipped that line. I googled 1942 Reed and Prentice lathe to see what one looked like and that was the first hit, price and location matched, so I figured that was it. Not a bad looking machine, just priced a little high imho, but if you want vintage, and don't want to start with a basket case...... I'm not keen on the color, but that is subjective, I like my machines grey, and lathe chucks evapo-black, so I don't have room to talk

No worries. When I entered the vintage lathe market, I decided that if I purchased a project lathe, then I would paint it grey.

The overwhelming consensus here militates in favor of a low counteroffer.

 

[Peroni]

I believe there is some value in an older machine that can be put to work without a costly rebuild. Exactly how much value will vary from one person to another depending on their skills and resources available to them.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

I think you also have to look at what else is available in the area. If it's a machine tool desert then the seller can ask whatever they want, or at least add a few grand on that you would otherwise have to pay trucking a machine in from a few states over. If there's other machines around, that should dictate how much they can ask.

IMO if there's nothing wrong with it, $2000 to $2500 would be a fare price for a lathe of that age, size, and features. IMO it should have a good 3 jaw, 4 jaw, steady rest, and a tool post at that price too. Value is less for damage, wear, missing pieces, etc. It's uncommon to find a lathe that old with little to no wear, which is good, but the lack of headstock speeds kick the value back down for me. The factors that drive up a lathes value would be if it was a newer more modern design, had hardened ways, higher headstock speeds (most modern lathes that size will at least get up to 2000rpm), newer DRO installed, or if it has other useful features that add to it's utility. That can be subjective if the features don't do you any good, like it's rare to find someone who needs a releiving gear train or low lead headstock attachment these days, but things like extra bed length, factory headstock/tailstock risers, or a gap bed can add value for the right interested party.

The fact that it's "old" or a military lathe adds value too, but not fiscally. Lots of guys out there who will respect it and keep it working, or even bring it back from the brink of the scrap pile for the historical warm-fuzzies of it, but that potential for warm fuzzies doesn't add dollar signs to the price. IOW, guys that want to ask for more money for a machine because it came out of the Packard car factory or their grandpa cut it out of a navy ship being scrapped, those guys are dreaming, but those things will increase interest at least.

 

[DrReid]

I think you also have to look at what else is available in the area. If it's a machine tool desert then the seller can ask whatever they want, or at least add a few grand on that you would otherwise have to pay trucking a machine in from a few states over. If there's other machines around, that should dictate how much they can ask.

IMO if there's nothing wrong with it, $2000 to $2500 would be a fare price for a lathe of that age, size, and features. IMO it should have a good 3 jaw, 4 jaw, steady rest, and a tool post at that price too. Value is less for damage, wear, missing pieces, etc. It's uncommon to find a lathe that old with little to no wear, which is good, but the lack of headstock speeds kick the value back down for me. The factors that drive up a lathes value would be if it was a newer more modern design, had hardened ways, higher headstock speeds (most modern lathes that size will at least get up to 2000rpm), newer DRO installed, or if it has other useful features that add to it's utility. That can be subjective if the features don't do you any good, like it's rare to find someone who needs a releiving gear train or low lead headstock attachment these days, but things like extra bed length, factory headstock/tailstock risers, or a gap bed can add value for the right interested party.

The fact that it's "old" or a military lathe adds value too, but not fiscally. Lots of guys out there who will respect it and keep it working, or even bring it back from the brink of the scrap pile for the historical warm-fuzzies of it, but that potential for warm fuzzies doesn't add dollar signs to the price. IOW, guys that want to ask for more money for a machine because it came out of the Packard car factory or their grandpa cut it out of a navy ship being scrapped, those guys are dreaming, but those things will increase interest at least.

I simply didn't know what I didn't know when I entered the used lathe market. After a few months, however, I now know that vintage lathes aren't uncommon here (PNW). In fact, I had a very close comparable in hand that could have been mine for essentially scrap price. It came with some broken gear teeth, not an intractable issue, I know, but one beyond my current ability to resolve. I think seller is capitalizing upon some points in your last paragraph: trying to attach money to historical value, Navy stamp, helped us win WWII, etc. Yes, very appealing, but I can't pay for that.

 

[Salem Straub]

I concur. Too expensive by at least half. Nice looking old lathe, but as others have mentioned hardened bedways and higher spindle speeds would be more appealing for that kind of money.
I could see $2500, as I live in the PNW too and vintage machine tools are a bit more rare out here... but I'd use the lack of a steady and compound, and the broken powerfeed as some serious bargaining chips. And remember, just set that walk away price and confidently turn down any counteroffer higher. A few times I've politely just stated "I can't pay that for this, but please keep me in mind if it doesn't sell, here's my contact info" and ended up making a deal on the machine down the road after the market proved my price reasonable.

 

[michiganbuck]

I passed on a Reed like that, and with a kick out for threading for $1800.
For $4K likely you should get an ok running lathe .
But in great condition and things you can fix price is not bad.

 

[DrReid]

I concur. Too expensive by at least half. Nice looking old lathe, but as others have mentioned hardened bedways and higher spindle speeds would be more appealing for that kind of money.
I could see $2500, as I live in the PNW too and vintage machine tools are a bit more rare out here... but I'd use the lack of a steady and compound, and the broken powerfeed as some serious bargaining chips. And remember, just set that walk away price and confidently turn down any counteroffer higher. A few times I've politely just stated "I can't pay that for this, but please keep me in mind if it doesn't sell, here's my contact info" and ended up making a deal on the machine down the road after the market proved my price reasonable.

Thanks. I appreciate your advice. (Incidentally, any ties to Salem, given your username?)

 

[Clive603]

From a home shop perspective I think the need for speed is generally overstated in forum advice. Especially so if you are working at 12 inches to the foot scale. Something that seems very likely if you anticipate that 1 inch or so is likely to be the smallest you will be doing. I generally work on around 100 sfm for steel and 200 sfm for everything else with HSS tooling. Call it 400 rpm and 800 rpm at 1" Ø.

My big lathe, a P&W Model B 12 x 30 maxes out at 750 rpm and my small one, a Smart & Brown 1024 at around 2,200 rpm real. I don't find these limits restrictive, it's rare that go over 1,000 rpm whatever the job. Although the smaller 1024 is much handier for many jobs I could manage just fine with the slower P&W if forced to use only one lathe. But I'd seriously miss the full set of imperial and metric 5c collets along with teh metric threading ability if I had to loose the 1024.

The rate at which chips come off tends to be a PIA when running at high speeds too. High cutting speeds from inserts tend to trade off against depth of cut. So as teh larger jobs are usually stiff enough you can crank up depth of cut to make fewer passes at lower speed taking not much longer than a fast running insert would manage. Worth remembering that inserts are generally specified for a short and merry life creating chips by the bucket load on a CNC machine. This can give you problems in figuring out when an insert is past its best on a more gentle, manual lathe, schedule. I have inserts and use them where appropriate but keeping track of how worn they are in occasional use is difficult.

Clive

 

[M.B. Naegle]

From a home shop perspective I think the need for speed is generally overstated in forum advice. Especially so if you are working at 12 inches to the foot scale. Something that seems very likely if you anticipate that 1 inch or so is likely to be the smallest you will be doing. I generally work on around 100 sfm for steel and 200 sfm for everything else with HSS tooling. Call it 400 rpm and 800 rpm at 1" Ø.

My big lathe, a P&W Model B 12 x 30 maxes out at 750 rpm and my small one, a Smart & Brown 1024 at around 2,200 rpm real. I don't find these limits restrictive, it's rare that go over 1,000 rpm whatever the job. Although the smaller 1024 is much handier for many jobs I could manage just fine with the slower P&W if forced to use only one lathe. But I'd seriously miss the full set of imperial and metric 5c collets along with teh metric threading ability if I had to loose the 1024.

The rate at which chips come off tends to be a PIA when running at high speeds too. High cutting speeds from inserts tend to trade off against depth of cut. So as teh larger jobs are usually stiff enough you can crank up depth of cut to make fewer passes at lower speed taking not much longer than a fast running insert would manage. Worth remembering that inserts are generally specified for a short and merry life creating chips by the bucket load on a CNC machine. This can give you problems in figuring out when an insert is past its best on a more gentle, manual lathe, schedule. I have inserts and use them where appropriate but keeping track of how worn they are in occasional use is difficult.

Clive

I agree about the chips flying at those higher speeds. We had a Colchester Clausing 15x48 that I'd regularly use at higher speeds on 3-6" diameter pieces and I had to make a rolling enclosure for it that rolled along the top of the back splash and the front of the chip pan. With that enclosure, 1500rpm, basic carbide indexable, and flood coolant, that thing could quickly peal off a lot of material and leave a beautiful finish. Ended up selling it to make room for other machines and consolidated it's work back to the 1909 16" Hendey which I think tops around under 600rpm. It can swing all the same jobs and does a lot of tricks the Clausing didn't, but rapid material removal with mirror finish's is something I had to leave to the CNC and smaller lathes.

For "big lathe" work, I agree that high speeds are not always required, but if you have the option and it's on the market, it's a worthwhile feature.

 

[Vecair]

Thats too much money for that old of a lathe, you can do much better for that price. This would be a better option for that money if still availible: https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/tls/d/portland-moriseiki-lathe/7732856468.html

Keep looking, I did and it paid off with a nice Cadillac lathe, and the speed and features of a newer lathe will become apparent once you have it. I have an old Monarch and South Bend, the newer Cadillac runs rings around them. Once you have a more modern lathe you will find it performs better and expands your abilities. Take your time and find the right lathe, it will pay off in the end.

 

[DrReid]

Thats too much money for that old of a lathe, you can do much better for that price. This would be a better option for that money if still availible: https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/tls/d/portland-moriseiki-lathe/7732856468.html

Keep looking, I did and it paid off with a nice Cadillac lathe, and the speed and features of a newer lathe will become apparent once you have it. I have an old Monarch and South Bend, the newer Cadillac runs rings around them. Once you have a more modern lathe you will find it performs better and expands your abilities. Take your time and find the right lathe, it will pay off in the end.

I appreciate the encouragement and suggestion. I learned that the Moriseiki you mention exists as disassembled parts likely comprising a complete lathe: a resto project begun but never finished. No tooling or extras, just a 3-jaw chuck. I'd have to put eyes on it to comment further.

 

[Halcohead]

If you are looking for a Reed-Prentice in particular, my shop mate has a 1941 Reed Prentice 18x60 lathe that runs and I’m sure he’d be happy to sell it. I would guess he would take $1000 for it and can ask if you like. Includes 3 and 4j chucks, and steady rest and Dorian toolpost. Of course it’s a long drive down to the Bay Area so maybe not the best fit for you.

Summary: the original lathe you’re being offered is roughly 4x overpriced, and if you want this one instead, drop me a message and I can get more info and send you photos.

 

[DrReid]

If you are looking for a Reed-Prentice in particular, my shop mate has a 1941 Reed Prentice 18x60 lathe that runs and I’m sure he’d be happy to sell it. I would guess he would take $1000 for it and can ask if you like. Includes 3 and 4j chucks, and steady rest and Dorian toolpost. Of course it’s a long drive down to the Bay Area so maybe not the best fit for you.

Summary: the original lathe you’re being offered is roughly 4x overpriced, and if you want this one instead, drop me a message and I can get more info and send you photos.

That is mighty kind of you, Halcohead. Thank you. The valuation seems spot on, as are your remarks on the RP that was the genesis of this thread. The driving distance to you is not too off-putting, but a 60" lathe is too large for the spot in my home shop.