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Homebuilt CNC in Tokyo

I really did try to go with Servos. They wouldn't have cost a lot more than my closed loop steppers. The issue was that the used market is exclusively for 3-phase drivers. Since I need this to run off of a 2-phase 60A service, this isn't an option. My OM steppers all use 200v single phase drivers, which are ideal for my purpose.

i suppose if somebody suggested you should look at a phase converter, your going to tell us they don't exist in Japan, and if they did they'd be prohibitavely expensive.

So did you consider using a phase converter?
 
i suppose if somebody suggested you should look at a phase converter, your going to tell us they don't exist in Japan, and if they did they'd be prohibitavely expensive.

So did you consider using a phase converter?

Piling on….. Some servo drives that say they are 3 phase input work fine with single phase input. My Mori Seiki TV30 with Mitsubishi control, servo drives and spindle drive has been running on single phase input for over 9 years now.
 
The one thing I may change is that currently all the 28mm ball screws are only rigidly retained at one end, the other sides are using a floating deep groove bearing support block. I know that pre-loading the X axis ball screw along its length by using another pair of angular bearings at the end will add rigidity and help it resist this rotational torque (if it isn't a figment of my imagination) by way of reducing the vertical deflection of the screw that has to happen if the plate rotates. (again, I hope I'm not speaking gibberish.)

Preloading the ballscrew will increase the maximum speed they can run, and can increase the axial stiffness. Doubt the former is a concern in this case. The latter, eh...but I suppose it can't hurt. I don't think it's going to do much in terms of reducing deflection. Not because you're wrong but because the magnitude of this deflection @ the ballscrew probably won't even be measurable unless you have some truly awful and/or worn out linear bearings. IMHO, I wouldn't worry about it. With all this torque stuff we're only talking about tiny amounts of deflection of the entire structure. The mental model of visualizing the entire z-axis rotating around a fixed pivot point while the rest of the machine stays fixed is misleading IMHO.

The long and short of it is that the ballscrew only needs to contend with force in a single direction, the bearings resist all other forces, and the position of the ballscrew does matter (especially for high accelerations) but rather than move the ballscrew (hard) you can also just get some stiffer bearings (easy) on your X-axis which will more than make up for the difference in this machine. Assuming any of this is even a problem at all given the size of your rails and the cutting forces you're likely to encounter.


Pass up a chance to bring out all my little treasures? Are you mad? I'm going to indicate this poor machine to death... it's going to visibly shudder at the sight of a Mitutoyo box.

Fair enough. The hoarding only gets worse by the way...just make sure it's useful stuff!

This is a pretty handy site to pick up some motion control basics and just to use as a reference from time to time. Take some time and browse the relevant articles.

Also Milland is correct about using a known reference surface for one (or both) rails. It's not required, but it makes life much easier. In this case given they're mounted to extrusion you may not have that luxury. This applies to the bearing blocks too by the way, so if it's not too late and you can have reference edges created on the plates to which the bearings are mounted - do it. Aligning 2 rails + 4 bearings with no references is a huge pain in the ass. Nevermind doing it 3 times and then trying to get them all square.

Speaking of which, make sure you look up the datasheets for your specific rails and take note of where the reference surfaces are on both the rails and the bearing blocks. They'll be marked in some way. Don't ignore these!

You should read this handy THK guide (they exist for other OEMs as well) like four times before assembling your rails.
 
On tensioned ball screws - I doubt your machine will be stiff enough to not distort when trying to tension the screws (no offense), so you'll either have to "counter distort" the frame and ways prior to tensioning, or stay with floating BS ends. I'd go with the second...
 
You are committed to steppers?
Yes the servo motors are often 3 phase but the amps/power supplies are most often not.
There is a huge performance difference at any sort of speed. Look at the power curves. Steppers make almost no power at max speed.

If using the speed limited steppers you may want to consider a fixed/free ball screw mounting. This eliminates the alignment problem of the screw to the rails.
My very old Chiron uses this and it is not a super tiny machine. There is a speed limit here in what is called critical shaft or screw speed.

Aluminum frame and steel rails can have a thermal expansion problem if subject to temp changes.
This can lead to bow or even a loosening of mount bolts as one is stiffer than the other and something has to give.

There are bellows or these Object moved to cover exposed ball screw.

One can not say enough about the above post on aligning rails and trucks. If everything free mount and tight preloads this can be an adventure.

Above all no matter the choices or tradeoffs have fun building it. The designing and building can be much more rewarding than using it.
I love this end.
Did my first computer controlled surface grinder in 1975. Looking back while it worked and made many ten thousands of parts it was poop.
I did not understand so much. If I had not dived in way over my head I would not know what I did not know.
Go for it and let no one's opinion or advice get in the way and that includes any talk from me.
Build.
Bob
 
i suppose if somebody suggested you should look at a phase converter, your going to tell us they don't exist in Japan, and if they did they'd be prohibitavely expensive.

So close to answering your own question... but before you could refute your own suggestion with facts you were lured back into the warm embrace of your straw man. Of course we have them. But you were right to assume they are prohibitively expensive here, as they are even in the states. A good quality solid state 3 phase converter over there is more than $3000 dollars, what do you think a ~35A unit costs over here? Or were you suggesting I save a little money and somehow place a giant rotary converter outside a few inches away from one of my neighbors?

So did you consider using a phase converter?

I feel sad for the guys coming to my thread trying to show off how much more knowledgeable you are, and then stepping on your own dingus. I mean you must have some great knowledge about other aspects of machining and equipment, I honestly look forward to hearing that from you, but why make suggestions that you could easily disqualify yourself before posting? I mean you already knew your suggestion was wrong on the most fundamental level of cost, before even considering the myriad of other nullifying factors, but then tried to obfuscate that obvious conclusion by first establishing me as an idiot or liar "your going to tell us they don't exist in Japan" and then stating the facts as if coming from me would be false "and if they did they'd be prohibitavely[sic] expensive"? It's pretty weak sauce... you are clearly acting in bad faith and it shows.

Piling on….. Some servo drives that say they are 3 phase input work fine with single phase input. My Mori Seiki TV30 with Mitsubishi control, servo drives and spindle drive has been running on single phase input for over 9 years now.

Dude, I thought we'd reached détente, but I guess once the other dogs start barking...

What you do with your own equipment, in your own place, is your business no matter how misguided I might think it is. But I suspect it will be little comfort to my wife, looking at the smoking ruins of our house, that the esteemed Vancbiker said it was okay to ignore every piece of technical documentation and just 'run it with whatever you got.' And when the Insurance company cites improper wiring and demands the receipts for the certified electrician that intentionally miswired this abomination or they will void the coverage, I somehow doubt citing your expertise will be of much help. So forgive me if I take a pass on this little gem of advice.
 
You are committed to steppers?

At this point, yes. I have already purchased all the drivers, motors, spares and wiring. This is an established part of the build that will not change for the initial phase, and very likely not be a target for upgrading. I will more likely move to a professional machine before I run into the limitations of what my closed-loop steppers can provide and be inclined to replace them.

Yes the servo motors are often 3 phase but the amps/power supplies are most often not.

Maybe where you are, not where I am. I'm not buying any of these components as new, this is all new-old stock surplus and used gear. Even though single phase servo drivers exist here in Japan, they are very very uncommon in practice. I'm not going to special order new single phase servo drivers or attempt to import DC versions of such components.

There is a huge performance difference at any sort of speed. Look at the power curves. Steppers make almost no power at max speed.

This was a conscious decision based on known constraints and with a full understanding of expected performance. This machine does not need to be fast, it is a stepping stone that is being built to prove the viability of metal parts for an unrelated endeavour. If I need speed I have the money to buy it. Frugality is a virtue until it chokes growth, we are not there yet. I'm happy to clarify anything once you've had a chance to read the rest of the thread carefully.

If using the speed limited steppers you may want to consider a fixed/free ball screw mounting. This eliminates the alignment problem of the screw to the rails.
My very old Chiron uses this and it is not a super tiny machine. There is a speed limit here in what is called critical shaft or screw speed.

It is an interesting solution, but I do not expect I will ultimately have any alignment problems. I have the appropriate metrological tools and time to do it right.

Aluminum frame and steel rails can have a thermal expansion problem if subject to temp changes.
This can lead to bow or even a loosening of mount bolts as one is stiffer than the other and something has to give.

Yes, and there is galvanic issues mixing the two as well. I suspect the short lengths being used and some of the damping strategies discussed above will help alleviate much of this, as well as the relative stability of the environment that it will be assembled and operate in, but I agree it is something to watch for.

There are bellows or these Object moved to cover exposed ball screw.

One can not say enough about the above post on aligning rails and trucks. If everything free mount and tight preloads this can be an adventure.

Above all no matter the choices or tradeoffs have fun building it. The designing and building can be much more rewarding than using it.
I love this end.
Did my first computer controlled surface grinder in 1975. Looking back while it worked and made many ten thousands of parts it was poop.
I did not understand so much. If I had not dived in way over my head I would not know what I did not know.
Go for it and let no one's opinion or advice get in the way and that includes any talk from me.
Build.
Bob

I really appreciate the advice and support! I hope to learn a lot from this build too, and I feel it will help me to appreciate how others have solved the problems I will no doubt encounter.
 
This is your first build. You can think the build to death but never get it right or even close to right because there are things you just flat out don't know or can't understand yet. This isn't an insult to you just the way life is.

Get it built then test test test. Rip it apart to fix the things that didn't work right. I believe you'll be time and money ahead if you do that.

If you are wanting a good story about how you built it from scratch and it came out like you wanted it to the first try to tell your friends then disregard my post.
 
......Dude, I thought we'd reached détente, but I guess once the other dogs start barking...

What you do with your own equipment, in your own place, is your business no matter how misguided I might think it is. But I suspect it will be little comfort to my wife, looking at the smoking ruins of our house, that the esteemed Vancbiker said it was okay to ignore every piece of technical documentation and just 'run it with whatever you got.' And when the Insurance company cites improper wiring and demands the receipts for the certified electrician that intentionally miswired this abomination or they will void the coverage, I somehow doubt citing your expertise will be of much help. So forgive me if I take a pass on this little gem of advice.

I didn't realize we were in a state of détente. I had already stated my opinion about the machine and thread and that was done.

I'm not sure how you made the jump to burning the house down by running a servo drive on single phase, but whatever. If you have convinced yourself that's the result, no reason for others with more knowledge and experience to try changing that.
 
I feel sad for the guys coming to my thread trying to show off how much more knowledgeable you are, and then stepping on your own dingus. I mean you must have some great knowledge about other aspects of machining and equipment, I honestly look forward to hearing that from you, but why make suggestions that you could easily disqualify yourself before posting? I mean you already knew your suggestion was wrong on the most fundamental level of cost, before even considering the myriad of other nullifying factors, but then tried to obfuscate that obvious conclusion by first establishing me as an idiot or liar "your going to tell us they don't exist in Japan" and then stating the facts as if coming from me would be false "and if they did they'd be prohibitavely[sic] expensive"? It's pretty weak sauce... you are clearly acting in bad faith and it shows.

Hes was only trying to help?

If its really that bad over there maybe a better solution would be moving out of Japan? :)

Tensioned ballscrews on a DIY machine driven by stepper motors??? Im sure standard ballscrew setup will be more then fine for a machine like this.
 
I don't really see the point of litigating OP's understanding of acquiring this equipment in Tokyo. If he's right about the challenges, then we're just wasting time. If he's wrong, well then he's wrong and it's his own burden to deal with. No skin off my back either way.

What might help is anyone actually providing data. "I know a guy in Japan" isn't data. Did that guy buy a phase converter? Where and what did it cost? @BakaFish says it's prohibitively expensive - what does prohibitively expensive mean, in dollar terms? Maybe it's 2x as expensive. Maybe it's the same price, and that price is already prohibitively expensive - considering you don't need one at all to run these steppers. Who knows. Let's either provide some factual counterpoints with actual data included, or stop shooting off on tangents...

To OP, rotary phase converters are actually pretty quiet. Just heavy. Not saying you should get one, just that I wouldn't worry about that particular concern. If you want to run servos one day I'd just go straight to the Clearpaths and save the $$$ on a phase converter. High quality closed-loop steppers are not bad devices though, and should be at least a cut or two above the usual Amazon stepper motors that most such builds use.
 
Look on taobao, just about everything you could ask for on the planet is there, then go shun feng for shipping. Easy peasy, plenty of people do it.

I could, but VAT and the like isn't usually included in an auto-generated shipping quote like that. Presumably OP knows this though, it'd be easier for him to say "a $3k phase converter will cost $6k by the time it lands at my doorstep" or some such. Then we know what we're working with and if he's making any incorrect assumptions (maybe it can be done for "only" $4k?) someone can correct him. I'm sure he'd be grateful. Otherwise we're just kinda going back and forth with "no I can't," "yes you can," etc.

Phase converter is a bit of a red herring for now anyway as he's using closed-loop steppers, but you get the idea.
 
I could, but VAT and the like isn't usually included in an auto-generated shipping quote like that.
wtf are you talking about ? You go to taobao, you find what you like, you ask the seller how much he will bargain and how much to ship, and $3,000 USD for a phase converter out of china is nuts.

Haven't looked but I bet yahoo japan has just as much stuff.

Besides that, if you want a phase converter all you really need is a 3 phase motor and a rope.

Talk about making mountains out of molehills ...
 
wtf are you talking about ? You go to taobao, you find what you like, you ask the seller how much he will bargain and how much to ship, and $3,000 USD for a phase converter out of china is nuts.

Haven't looked but I bet yahoo japan has just as much stuff.

Besides that, if you want a phase converter all you really need is a 3 phase motor and a rope.

Talk about making mountains out of molehills ...

With all the 'research' the OP has done he'd know that making a home grown phase converter is easy.

Except he's going to tell us used 3 phase motors are uncommon on the used market, and stuff like capacitors etc can't be had cheaply because there's no Jap equivalent of Allied/Newark/mouser/digikey etc etc.

OP needs to do less research and get off his arse and get building
 
I could, but VAT and the like isn't usually included in an auto-generated shipping quote like that. Presumably OP knows this though, it'd be easier for him to say "a $3k phase converter will cost $6k by the time it lands at my doorstep" or some such. Then we know what we're working with and if he's making any incorrect assumptions (maybe it can be done for "only" $4k?) someone can correct him. I'm sure he'd be grateful. Otherwise we're just kinda going back and forth with "no I can't," "yes you can," etc.

Phase converter is a bit of a red herring for now anyway as he's using closed-loop steppers, but you get the idea.

This is such a waste of time since I honestly feel the OP was making the argument for a Phase-Converter in bad faith, or at least the idea that I didn't consider it. But it's clear that the details may be enlightening to some, so I will go over a couple of the more major roadblocks.

Background:

Japan has two classes of power, residential (from 20-60A max split phase in 10A increments which sets your baseline monthly fee) and industrial (3-phase sky is the limit.) We have a very high population density, and strict zoning, so getting 3-phase is not difficult if you are in the appropriate industrial zone and comply with the other zoning requirements. On the other hand, there is ZERO chance of getting 3-phase run to a Tokyo residence even if you could poke the 3 phase transformer with a 10 foot pole from your balcony, which I just about can.

Technically you can apply for a special exemption for up to 100A of split phase in some residential areas including mine, but it literally triples the baseline fee (it would add ~$200mo. to my bill) and requires both approval (you need to justify it, like special assistive medical equipment) and the wiring from the transformer on the pole to the POE and the wiring from the meter box to the distribution board to be upgraded as the standard wiring used to supply Japanese homes is only rated up to 60A.

I have already replaced my distribution board (this is all detailed in my GJ thread), it itself is capable of supporting more than 100A, but the supply line going to the meter and point of entry is the standard 3-wire 14mm² copper cable which is run inside the walls and ceiling of my house in such a way to make replacement highly destructive. They do not build houses here with any thought of renovation and space is always the biggest factor, so things like wiring chase-ways are not used, they just nail everything in place.

If I add solar power and a storage battery I will be able to have access to more split phase power, but the 60A limit is my reality at this time. There are additional complications only found here, such as the smart meter soft limits, the inline current limiter and the fact that the whole house is serviced behind a single GFI breaker, but please read the GJ thread if you are interested in more of these details.

1) Cost. The first thing about phase converters is that unlike VFD's, they are not something a non-certified electrician can buy directly. There is no open distribution for them. They are not sold by Industrial supply houses or internet shops. This is why I didn't link to any, and giving the OP the benefit of the doubt that he even looked, he didn't link to any.

They are not something that you can just order like you can in the US, you need to get it quoted as part of the entire installation with a site inspection, zoning approvals and detailed engineering requirements provided before you can even get a price. Maybe hearing that you can start getting a sense of the costs involved. As I said, a good quality US unit supporting a modest 35A load is $3000 in the US. Any of you could look that up yourselves, is that amount reasonable for this project? Not in my book, but maybe you could make the argument.

But $3000 is the US price and I would expect to pay 3 times that for this kind of component here, but since I can't prove that let's pretend they are half the cost of the US units, only $1500. How much do you think they will charge me to come out and survey the location, install the industrial enclosure our code requires, install the phase converter, and run conduits and all new wiring (there is zero chance they would utilize any existing wiring, you have to understand this is Japan and everything is by the book.) The cost of the phase converter itself is the smallest portion of this proposal.

Why don't I import some POS Chinese box or import a nice 'merican unit? Because OUR POWER IS DIFFERENT. Yes, it is at the edge of the tolerance of some units, but I'm not one who gambles with electricity. I love my house and my wife and my life and my things, forgive me if I don't want to put them at risk with some crudely misapplied electrical system. I also like having home insurance, do you really think a self installed non-certified phase converter isn't going to immediately nullify my policy? And even $3000 plus shipping, import duties and the very high probability that it is held at customs for aforementioned non-compliance with Japanese electrical standards are all stupid ways to spend my money when I have a perfectly good solution I can literally touch with my hands as I write this.

2) Feasibility. RESIDENTIAL ZONE. That means people living in houses, enjoying their TV's and rice cookers. It is where the industrial electrician lives, not where he works. The suggestion that an industrial electrical company is going to do anything other than politely hang up on a stupid Gaijin asking them to come give a quote at his house in the center of Tokyo for a phase converter install is laughable. If you think it would ever happen then you know absolutely nothing about this place. It is a ridiculous non-starter. "But it doesn't say anywhere in the rules that dogs can't play basketball!" In Japan, if it isn't explicitly in the rules it is assumed to be forbidden and not open to discussion or persuasion of any kind, no matter how reasonable you might think you're being.

3) Practicality. Where am I supposed to put it? My power distribution, like in most Japanese homes, is located inside the residence, in my case in the Kitchen. My wife is a kind and gentle soul, but a massive deadly* box humming ominously on the wall of her kitchen is a non-starter.

*Wives have their own take on these things, there is no point arguing with me about this.

I like my house the way it is, non-industrial. I ran dedicated 30A and 20A circuits to my shop room cleanly and intentionally, no one who didn't have a deep knowledge of electrical sockets would ever even notice them. I do not want to have industrial conduit added everywhere, I do not want to add additional wiring or put big boxes on my walls or outside. I want to be able to relocate the CNC to another location and have no sign it existed here.

And "Not that loud" is all in the ear of the beholder. The idea that I would install some mysterious motor next to a neighbor's house maybe doesn't sound crazy to you because you do not understand the cultural norms of Japanese living in such tight quarters. The idea is bonkers. I love my house, I by no means mean this as a brag, but it is probable that it costs more than the homes of most of the people reading this. But I would bet your less expensive homes are far more expansive, luxurious and come with hundreds of times more land and open space around them. Tokyo is one of the most expensive places to live in the world, the compromises that must be made by even the well off are more than you would likely ever want to make. I know I chose to live here, if you can't deal with that reality please recuse yourself from the thread. I'm always hesitant to bring these shortcomings up because the dim witted amongst you will find easy fodder in ridiculing the costs and perceived value compared to what they have. "Her de hur! I payed 1% as much and have 100 times more." Good for you, but it doesn't change the challenges I'm facing. But for me, I have absolutely no regrets about my choice to move here to Japan, or doubt how lucky I am to have what I have. Haters always gonna hate I guess.

So back to the practicality. I discussed a little about zoning and the percentage laws (more details about building codes in the GJ thread) and the result of that is that there is virtually no space around the outside of the house to put anything, just enough room to squeeze yourself past the neighbors, half a meter or so, who are on all sides, and none of it is square, it is all crazy angles. Nothing is ever square here. What little 'yard' I have in the front facing the street is dominated by the heat exchangers for the individual heating and cooling systems each room has. This minimizes their nearly silent operation from disturbing anyone. A phase converter is far louder, people put them outside and in sound enclosures for a reason, let's be real about it. While I'm sure I could find a place for a rotary phase converter, it would be a real pain in the ass and draw even more unwanted attention from my neighbors who I've been doing everything I can to think of me as one of them (an impossible task as it is.)

tl,dr; A phase converter, once considered, is a dumb and impractical idea. Not quite at the level of linear motors, but up there.
 
I did the CNC deal on the 'Zone' and there was a lot more 'walking' than all this 'talking'. Quit all the bullshit and make something..show us something...not just postulations or such. You can't have time to build your thing if you spend all your time shooting the shit with these folks.

Get in the shop, make stuff and post some pix!

Stuart
 
So close to answering your own question... but before you could refute your own suggestion with facts you were lured back into the warm embrace of your straw man. Of course we have them. But you were right to assume they are prohibitively expensive here, as they are even in the states. A good quality solid state 3 phase converter over there is more than $3000 dollars, what do you think a ~35A unit costs over here? Or were you suggesting I save a little money and somehow place a giant rotary converter outside a few inches away from one of my neighbors?
I feel sad for the guys coming to my thread trying to show off how much more knowledgeable you are, and then stepping on your own dingus. I mean you must have some great knowledge about other aspects of machining and equipment, I honestly look forward to hearing that from you, but why make suggestions that you could easily disqualify yourself before posting? I mean you already knew your suggestion was wrong on the most fundamental level of cost, before even considering the myriad of other nullifying factors, but then tried to obfuscate that obvious conclusion by first establishing me as an idiot or liar "your going to tell us they don't exist in Japan" and then stating the facts as if coming from me would be false "and if they did they'd be prohibitavely[sic] expensive"? It's pretty weak sauce... you are clearly acting in bad faith and it shows. .

Lighten up Felicia

My first phase converter was built from a 3hp 3 phase motor I bought out of the recycler paper in 1991. Then assembled the electrical side with parts from either Allied or Newark, total cost maybe $200-250. It was quite noisy until I put in a box, with just enough ventilation to stop it getting excessively hot.

Without a dought 3phase motors new or used can be found in Japan, as can all the components. Plans to make phase converters are common.

Or get a Phase-A-matic, ($196) and wire it to 3ph motor, voila, a rotary phase converter.

Phase-A-Matic PAM-200HD $196.93 Phase Converter, Static, 3/4-1.5 HP | Zoro.com

Or were you suggesting I save a little money and somehow place a giant rotary converter outside a few inches away from one of my neighbors? .

Not quite sure how you think I was suggesting a giant phase converter next to your neighbor.

But as your neighbours probably already think you’re an eccentric savant, they wouldn’t be surprised
 








 
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