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Keyence handheld cmm spare parts

If Hexagon (the bestagon) really provides longer than most, that's great news, but even you seem to think it's likely an exception even within their own product groups (feels like a policy holdover from an acquired company).
You're putting words in my mouth. Do you expect your Mitsubishi car and your Mitsubishi CNC to have the same EOL policy just because they both say Mitsubishi on them? Geosystems and Manufacturing Intelligence products were both acquired from Leica, but have completely different purposes and target markets.

It's clear you have strong opinions on defending Keyence here, despite the well known issues with their US operations. You should be able to do so without putting down other companies you know nothing about.
 
It's clear you have strong opinions on defending Keyence here, despite the well known issues with their US operations.

I do work for three different companies that use Keyence products.

Haven't heard a single complaint about their products or their US operation.
 
You could look up to the first few posts in this thread, if you have time :)

Not heard one complaint on 10+installations of laser and camera systems. The only complaint I hear is about cost:eek:
I don't do the Keyence installation, I just design and provide the brackets.

I'm not going to regard the OP's post as any kind of indictment of Keyence.

FFS it's a cable. I would have ordered the ends and had a replacement cable soldered up in day or two and carried on. Especially if it was evident that Keyence couldn't provide one. Sometimes you have to put your bigboy pants on and generate the solution yourself. :)
 
FFS it's a cable. I would have ordered the ends and had a replacement cable soldered up in day or two and carried on. Especially if it was evident that Keyence couldn't provide one. Sometimes you have to put your bigboy pants on and generate the solution yourself. :)
Not always that easy. I've passed on a few interesting accessories for old SGI's where the difficulty was, you couldn't get the cable. No one knew who where or how the ends came from, they weren't in digikey or anywhere else, and no one knew the pinout. We're talking pretty smart people here, from CERN and so on. Other cases where you could figure out what the fittings were but no one had them, hadn't been produced for ten years, can't get them. One of them a scsi cable used in IBM servers, of all things, so you'd think they'd be plentiful. Nope.

Point is, cable is an obvious wear part, the supplier should be responsible enough to either plan for this by keeping a large stock or even better plan for it by using some cots component. That's what responsible companies are supposed to do.

A lot of them talk "service ! support !" but when the rubber hits the road, it's a retread and the cord is showing. Talk is cheap.
 
no one knew the pinout. We're talking pretty smart people here, from CERN and so on.

Jez Louise, if somebody from CERN couldn't figure out the pinout with a meter, two prongs and a pencil and paper then were in real trouble.

Not getting ends, that could be a problem. Especially if you can't figure out who made the end.

We had an old Taiwanese EDM sinker that had electronic issues, that the electronic geniuses who worked there couldn't fix because they couldn't get the components. I had a friend who designed and built his own CNC controls. I called him up and asked if he could look for the components. Took him half a day (cost me a ton of pizza) I asked him where he found the components, he said you had to know where to look. They didn't come from Newark/Digikey/Mouser or any of the other suspects. He knew places that sold surplus and obsolete electronic equipment and components
 
Point is, cable is an obvious wear part, the supplier should be responsible enough to either plan for this by keeping a large stock or even better plan for it by using some cots component. That's what responsible companies are supposed to do.

imho not using cots components is plain irresponsible. Bit like the mass of f'ing obsolete Iphone cables I have lying around the house that are of no use but to connect to Iphones.

The EU forcing Apple to use USB-C is a move in the right direction.
 
Guys, the lesson here isn't about specific brands, as much as fanboy's want to make it about that. Everything has a support life, be it 5, 7 or 10+ years. Not only should that be factored in to your purchase decision, you have to be prepared for less because this is an aspirational timespan that is dependant on a lot of planning and luck. Yes, your favorite brand too. Support clauses go through lawyers who make sure the company has a lot of 'outs' because as I keep saying, OEM's have their own timeframes and all it takes is a complex part that has a systemic issue to blow up support for a product line.

Imagine your laser scanner uses an imaging device from supplier S and the optical coating they used changes characteristics and degrades over time in a harmful way. Service stock of the replacement part is either similarly affected, or was depleted by the first round of failures. You don't stock a replacement part for every machine you ever sold, you stock a very small percentage based on tightly held statistics of failure rates of previous parts. You might increase your stock based on trends you see during the model line's lifetime, but getting an OEM to spin up production is costly so you batch it out. The OEM stopped making the part years ago, your brand sourced it out of stock that was in their inventory at a good price, supply was good at the time, when it started getting constrained you discontinued the product. At that point the part may have been out of production for many years and the OEM already sold the outdated equipment that made that part when they switched to more modern and improved imaging devices. Now you are seeing lots of failures in the field on "Out of Warranty" but not "End of Life" products. What does the company do? It points at their support contracts and policies that gives them a clear exemption for precisely this issue. That 10 years you planned on is out the window, and you have little to no recourse.

If you are a major customer, you will likely get a deep (and I'm talking 30-50%) discount on replacement units, because it is worth it to keep brand loyalty and you know that there will be incidental orders that spring from this. In the worst cases (from the suppliers point of view), the customer might even get whole unit replacements. The business case will identify if the supplier will make the discounts or expenditures back over time. Sales has their own budgets for this, even if support tells them to go to hell. A big customer knows that the 10 years they were told has exceptions, they're experienced and you've provided them the OEM unavailability as why you can't support it anymore. The customer had the equipment scheduled for phase out in a year or two anyway, everything works out.

But if you are Mr. Imortgagedmyhousetobuythis, anything they offer you is a kindness that they are under no legal obligation to make. You will pay more for a lawyer than you will ever get from them, they have no incentive to offer the deep discounts to small frys, they are a business, this would be a long term loss, and unfortunately that's just one of the lessons of life. As a small business you just aren't as important since you can't generate the same revenue as a large customer. It's not unfair, it's business. From your standpoint it may be bad business, and you will come to some forum like this and complain, but there will be 5 fanboys of the brand that will contradict you and tell you it's your fault. The company isn't going to miss your business and complaining publicly won't harm their reputation as much as you might hope. After all, you are riding their machine until its last breath, big business buyers and decision makers will roll their eyes at your complaints. There is lower hanging fruit from a support standpoint as far as maintaining one's reputation, EOL issues isn't one of them.

There are good and bad support people in every company. For the most part they want to help you, even if you are a little guy. I made it my policy a long time ago to ignore who the customer is (here in Asia there is so much big customer worship) and provide good service to everyone. But small businesses are at a disadvantage, and if you haven't internalized and accommodated for this than you shouldn't be in business. Again, it is fair, big companies get better support and discounts because they spend astronomically more and are a consistent revenue stream.

Get bigger or learn to shmooze the support people and make their jobs easy so they go out of their way for you. You are under duress when dealing with support, and it is easy to let your frustration get the better of you, but anger doesn't help as much as you think it does, and support people can screw you if you give them a reason to. Know when and how to escalate issues when that doesn't work. Know how to find alternate means of support, through the community or from independent repair. Third party repair people are smart and capable and will perform miracles far greater than any manufacturer is willing, they take repairing stuff as a challenge, utilize them. They are small like you and know what you are facing.

It's not about the brand, they are all ultimately constrained buy the same circumstances of the business, it's about you and your determination to make shit work and get it done. Good luck.
 
Jez Louise, if somebody from CERN couldn't figure out the pinout with a meter, two prongs and a pencil and paper then were in real trouble.
You have to have a known good one to start with ... some of that stuff was so arcane that no one had even seen a real one.

bakafish said:
bla bla bla
In short, electronics suppliers are scum. We already knew that. The point is, here's a concrete illustration of how their words are worthless.

I guess the only people who are worse would be software ...
 
I figured I'd give an update. I never had time to fix the Keyence or try to search around to find someone that was willing to repair such an niche sort of item. The Keyence rep said they found a cable weeks ago and then never showed up with it. We are selling the Keyence on eBay for like 12k as is since that's what they seem like they are going for. We decided it wasn't worth the headache. The Mitutoyo salesman had no idea what I was taking about when I mentioned EOL or EOS agreements when buying a cmm from them. He went as far as to say the machine would be with us for 10-15 years and they wouldn't just up and leave us high and dry. I was pretty sold on the Mistar but I'm not going to make the same mistake again with a Japanese company. We just bought a new Zeiss spectrum cmm and the Zeiss salesman had no idea what I was talking about either as far as EOL or EOS agreement go. I wish I could have found something better but it felt like a lost cause after searching and comparing for a few days. I called and sent emails to all sorts of places asking about EOL or EOS and nada, zip, doodah. I think that getting that info is made difficult on purpose but that's just my 2 cents.
 
Thanks for the follow up, it is disappointing that the sales people were unable to give you any assurances, but no commitment at least sets your expectations properly, the warranty itself may be all that is safe to rely on. I hope you can recover some value from the old machine (and the buyer can get it repaired.)
 
I figured I'd give an update. I never had time to fix the Keyence or try to search around to find someone that was willing to repair such an niche sort of item. The Keyence rep said they found a cable weeks ago and then never showed up with it. We are selling the Keyence on eBay for like 12k as is since that's what they seem like they are going for. We decided it wasn't worth the headache. The Mitutoyo salesman had no idea what I was taking about when I mentioned EOL or EOS agreements when buying a cmm from them. He went as far as to say the machine would be with us for 10-15 years and they wouldn't just up and leave us high and dry. I was pretty sold on the Mistar but I'm not going to make the same mistake again with a Japanese company. We just bought a new Zeiss spectrum cmm and the Zeiss salesman had no idea what I was talking about either as far as EOL or EOS agreement go. I wish I could have found something better but it felt like a lost cause after searching and comparing for a few days. I called and sent emails to all sorts of places asking about EOL or EOS and nada, zip, doodah. I think that getting that info is made difficult on purpose but that's just my 2 cents.
As much as people love to hate Hexagon, the CMM we have is going to be 20 years old this year and still has parts and support available for it.
 
if one system is in the highest level of usage or perfection, another which cost above 50 000.00 has to be i the same class. As a matter of fact it is, complains come from lack of knowledge/training or not understanding, from either site, customer's or a company's assigned contact rep.
What's your point? Am I not trained enough to order a part? I begged my sales rep to help me and it never panned out. I posted on this site for alternatives for sourcing parts and for more opinions. Its has nothing to do with their optical comparators. I guess the Keyence fan boys don't fall far from the tree when it comes to solving or understanding problems.
 
As much as people love to hate Hexagon, the CMM we have is going to be 20 years old this year and still has parts and support available for it.
Because Hexagon downhill slide had only begun few years ago. We have 1 Brown & Sharpe One CMM that was bought shortly after the disastrous takeover with 2016 pcdmis cad installed & never had any issues. On the other hand our nearly new Global S has been junk. 1st we had dumped 2021 pc dmis for 2020 R2 one because the newer version was so buggy it messed up the controller and it took Hexagon techs 6 months to figure this out. The supposed super scan capability never worked as advertised. The machine stops dead if you crank up the scanning speed to the advertised speed. And we never tried to use the simultaneous probe head angle change while in motion because Hexagon apps engineer advised against it. Seriously? Not to mention software licence renewal has been cost prohibitive. And even dealing with annual calibration scheduling has been nothing but headache. We might eventually purchase the Romer arm but only because there isn't really anything in the market for arms besides LK & Nikon. We could buy those but this will add yet another incompatible software to the mix which we don't want to do.
 
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Folks, the biggest problem with Keyence is they treat their hardware as throwaway items. It's like TVs & phones these days. That is why we buy only Keyence IM system & optical micrometers because these things have no cables & virtually no moving parts. Moreover, they aren't as pricey as full blown vision CMMs; if they break we junk them if Keyence doesn't/can't fix them & buy another one. Moreover, training production folks takes 5 minutes or so vs. any CMM. So far, we have been pleased with their reliability and user friendlies.
Next CMM we plan to buy is the Mistar 555. Best balance between software, price & capability. Zeiss is great but expensive & Calypso's user interface is so different than rest of the industry we just can't afford the time learning the basics all over again. Also, we won't pick on Japanese equipment since something like half of Zeiss stuff is built in Japan by Accretech anyway. We've had great experience with the Japanese QC tech as well as shop floor tech. This is in contrast to Hexagon (most of which is Euro tech; see my comment above) and Italian/German CNCs coupled with Siemens controls that management in their infinite expertise decided to purchase in recent years. All we hear from CNC and maintenance guys about those Euro machines is rants intertwined with f-bombs. Meanwhile Makinos, Toyodas, Brothers & Mazaks that have been acquired years ago just keep going & going & going.
 
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