Low cost HSK tool holders, worth the price?

[Mr.Chipeater]

I'm looking to purchase 30-40 HSK63A holders to tool up a new machine and I am curious if anyone here has bought cheap holders from ebay or other similar sites and what kind of quality they ended up being.

For example, this brand new ER32 holder on ebay is less than $60 if you buy 3 or more (Ebay ER32 holder). The same holder from Maritool is $205 (Maritool ER32 holder). I have no doubt Maritool is a high quality product but if you take both listings at face value they are nearly identical: balanced to G2.5, sub .0002" runout, hardened steel.

Is there going to be any appreciable difference in performance or longevity between the $60 and the $205 holder?

 

[ManualEd]

I'm looking to purchase 30-40 HSK63A holders to tool up a new machine and I am curious if anyone here has bought cheap holders from ebay or other similar sites and what kind of quality they ended up being.

For example, this brand new ER32 holder on ebay is less than $60 if you buy 3 or more (Ebay ER32 holder). The same holder from Maritool is $205. I have no doubt Maritool is a high quality product but if you take both listings at face value they are nearly identical: balanced to G2.5, sub .0002" runout, hardened steel.

Is there going to be any appreciable difference in performance or longevity between the $60 and the $205 holder?

If you take eBay listings at face value, I've got a van full of professional sound systems that fell off a truck. I can sell em to you cheap...

 

[crossthread82]

The tolerance for taper to face contact is pretty tight and very critical on a hsk holder. Also they are very thin and prone to cracking up near the gage face if improperly heat treated.

You really going to chance a $40k integrated motor hsk spindle to save a couple bucks on some holders?

Keep in mind QC on import dirt cheap holders is basically none existent, so stated specs are moot.

 

[Mr.Chipeater]

You really going to chance a $40k integrated motor hsk spindle to save a couple bucks on some holders?

Well the almost $6k is savings is a good down payment for a rebuilt spindle

In all seriousness, I'm well aware of the old adage "you get what you pay for" but I'm curious if anyone has got numbers to backup all the claims of cheap=junk. There's not that much sophisticated about manufacturing a simple tool holder.

You could take your argument one step further and ask why would anyone risk their spindle running Maritool cause it's half the price of Big Kaiser or Rego holders, clearly the more expensive QC must be better... Sounds a bit silly doesn't it?

 

[crossthread82]

You could take your argument one step further and ask why would anyone risk their spindle running Maritool cause it's half the price of Big Kaiser or Rego holders, clearly the more expensive QC must be better... Sounds a bit silly doesn't it?

Difference being is Frank is very transparent about his products and manufacturing capabilities and QC. Plus there are numerous people here who will vouch for their stuff. Less expensive doesn't = junk. But buying precision products that have serious consequences if they fail from a place that is known for shody work and lack of oversight is a gamble plain and simple.

Why risk your brand new $X00k+ investment just to save 1% on something that is critically important to it's operation?

Best money spent when buying a new machine is getting a tooling cert with your quote so you can get the good stuff at a discount.

Edit- At least if you're going to buy cheap Chinese holders I'd buy the ones Haas is selling b/c I'd like to think they're doing their own QC on them. And they're like $10 more.

 

[EmGo]

In all seriousness, I'm well aware of the old adage "you get what you pay for" but I'm curious if anyone has got numbers to backup all the claims of cheap=junk.

No, they don't. But that won't stop them from running off at the mouth.

If you really want to know, there's only one way - buy a few and check them out yourself.

 

[alek95]

Buy a few from eBay and a few from Frank and compare. Maybe the ebay ones are good, maybe they aren't.

 

[???]

I'm looking to purchase 30-40 HSK63A holders to tool up a new machine and I am curious if anyone here has bought cheap holders from ebay or other similar sites and what kind of quality they ended up being.

For example, this brand new ER32 holder on ebay is less than $60 if you buy 3 or more (Ebay ER32 holder). The same holder from Maritool is $205 (Maritool ER32 holder). I have no doubt Maritool is a high quality product but if you take both listings at face value they are nearly identical: balanced to G2.5, sub .0002" runout, hardened steel.

Is there going to be any appreciable difference in performance or longevity between the $60 and the $205 holder?

Not HSK but I deal directly with a manufacturer/supplier of BT30/40 holders in China. I pay $13.50 per holder that is rated to 25k. I've been there and watched them balancing the holders on a Haimer so it's not just some arbitrary marking. Runout is always less than the spindle. To sum it up if you find the right place they are always worth the money. Lots of the name brand stuff is made in China anyway.

 

[Mr.Chipeater]

Difference being is Frank is very transparent about his products and manufacturing capabilities and QC. Plus there are numerous people here who will vouch for their stuff. Less expensive doesn't = junk.

You're sort of missing the point. I used Maritool in my post because I know people here are so vocal about him here and if I mentioned any other brand, there'd be 10 replies all saying just buy Maritool.

Does Frank provide inspection and hardness data for each holder? How do you know if his inspection equipment is routinely calibrated? I don't see an ISO9000 cert on the website. How do you know it's actually to specification other than taking his word for it?

I've got nothing against Maritool, that's not the point I'm trying to make. Really you can replace Maritool with any other respected brand for the sake of the argument.

My point is: these are all questions you use to scrutinize low cost holders but give name brands a pass even though both websites provided the same level of guarantee, which are just words.

That's why I'm asking if anyone has numbers to backup it up, otherwise it's all just conjecture.

 

[Mr.Chipeater]

If you really want to know, there's only one way - buy a few and check them out yourself.

Yea, I kinda figured I'm headed that route. I was just hoping someone else might have done it already to save me the trouble.

Though after looking at the spec, I'm not sure our Zeiss CMM can reliably measure the 3 micron surface profile tolerance with great enough statistical significance.

Do tool maker's have a dedicated piece of equipment they use or a master reference gauge?

 

[Vancbiker]

........Do tool maker's have a dedicated piece of equipment they use or a master reference gauge?

HSK Tool Holder Dimensional Gauges

tacrockford.com

 

[rjwalker1973]

I have tried some of the cheap holder on ebay. I got 2 and they was both garbage. The runout was teribad. I would buy Shars before I buy them again. Does that mean the ones you are looking at are garbage? Nope got a buddy that got a few and never had an issue. It's a crapshoot. The one thing I will say is you buy from Frank and they will be good, no doubt. Only one way to know for sure though.

 

[5 axis Fidia guy]

I would not do it, even if the tolerance and balance is there, that's only half the battle. The steel will be junk, old cash for clunkers car bodies.

 

[Milling man]

I’ll write not exactly on topic, but probably close to it
We are poor guys, so we buy 99% of our mandrels and tools on AliExpress and/or TaoBao. By reading reviews for a long time, communicating with sellers and communicating with colleagues (my part-time technologist does some work remotely for a company in China and periodically visits there), we found 1-2-3 companies with good, stable quality.
We have 7:24 cones, but I recommended the tool of these companies with an HSK connection to 2 colleague companies and it seems that everyone was very pleased.
I checked the mandrels that we received using methods available to me: runout in the centers, runout in the spindle, hardness, roughness. Everything is at least as good as Hymer, and in some cases even better.

 

[Orange Vise]

Improper heat treating and/or bad material can be the achilles' heel of low cost manufacturers. I've seen CAT40 flanges randomly crack due to embrittlement. They were very few in number, but they did happen to multiple people who purchased from the same brand.

Maritool is already a really great value at $200 a pop for an American made product. The German and Swiss offerings are 3X that.

 

[usolutions]

I’ll write not exactly on topic, but probably close to it
We are poor guys, so we buy 99% of our mandrels and tools on AliExpress and/or TaoBao. By reading reviews for a long time, communicating with sellers and communicating with colleagues (my part-time technologist does some work remotely for a company in China and periodically visits there), we found 1-2-3 companies with good, stable quality.
We have 7:24 cones, but I recommended the tool of these companies with an HSK connection to 2 colleague companies and it seems that everyone was very pleased.
I checked the mandrels that we received using methods available to me: runout in the centers, runout in the spindle, hardness, roughness. Everything is at least as good as Hymer, and in some cases even better.

Mind sharing a bit?

 

[CarbideBob]

Yea, I kinda figured I'm headed that route. I was just hoping someone else might have done it already to save me the trouble.

Though after looking at the spec, I'm not sure our Zeiss CMM can reliably measure the 3 micron surface profile tolerance with great enough statistical significance.

Do tool maker's have a dedicated piece of equipment they use or a master reference gauge?

Very special gauge pots and golden masters.
No way any CMM at any price can check these holders at making time.
Last I checked the gauges and masters were about $60,000 to $90,000 for the family.
That is not a typo.
Know people who have bought such and these. Think about how many you need to make just to pay for the measuring. Back in the late 90's it was only 30-40K.
I looked at doing it and I ran away even when price tags much higher.

I've seen so great and I've seen bad holders out of China. Roll the dice?

You need 40 so I do understand the ask. That money can pay for trip to go see Mari and the why/how of this making.
At his price of $220 I have no idea of how to make any money on this fancy stuff.

HSK expands inside on drawbar. Most will pull in no matter how bad. What they will not have is taper and wall seat.
So a not great one loads into the spindle just fine.
The taper may contact on a line, maybe you do not hit the flange. Either or will certainly run in any machine but not the same.
Bob

 

[RJT]

I have always believed in and used top quality toolholders. This is relevant , but not the same usage. We got into EDM in 1990 and were shocked at the pricing for 3R tooling for both wire and sinker EDM. We decided to bite the bullet and spring for the tooling as we knew it was a long term investment. We have been through 4 generations of EDM machines, but still are using the original 3R tooling. Accurate and reliable after 34 years. Now I understand that EDM tooling is not subject to the same forces and pressure of these toolholders, but my point is, you will never be disappointed with high quality tooling. If you are going to make your living using it, go for the quality. You will soon forget about the cost. There are no shortcuts to repeatable precision.

 

[Mtndew]

Is there going to be any appreciable difference in performance or longevity between the $60 and the $205 holder?

It's your money and your machine, are you willing to risk your spindle to find out the answer to that question?
Personally I wouldn't buy them. Buy from a well known, respected company whether it be Mari-Tool, Big Kaiser, Nikken, Rego-Fix, Schunk, etc...

 

[Orange Vise]

HSK expands inside on drawbar. Most will pull in no matter how bad. What they will not have is taper and wall seat.
So a not great one loads into the spindle just fine.
The taper may contact on a line, maybe you do not hit the flange. Either or will certainly run in any machine but not the same.
Bob

Yes.

In addition, it's impossible for the user to tell how much force is acting on the taper and the face when clamped. Even if both make contact, that doesn't necessarily mean it's being held with adequate clamping pressure.

If I were to identify one defining characteristic of budget manufacturers, its their unwillingness to scrap bad products. So the customer is really rolling the dice.