OT: home backup power generators

[empower]

Empo started it Thursday. Today is Saturday. Do you work in corporate finance, by any chance ?


Wow. A B.A.R. and some tanks of pcp. Should make for a very interesting party

i'm dead... LOL!

 

[EmGo]

i already have a 500gallon propane tank, so its a no brainer.

If you're all electric, how come so much ? Ours might have been that large, living in the woods with propane hot water, stove, and heat ... and it lasted two months between refills.

 

[projectnut]

This thread is very old, but still very much valid. When considering a backup generator, the primary concern should be backup and without fuel security, you really do not have backup. That can be accomplished by either heating oil (diesel) or propane. Natural gas should not even be considered because you do not have control of its supply. Now the argument is between propane and oil. Propane requires a large tank under pressure and oil requires a simple plastic tank. Oil has 50% more energy by volume than propane, so storage takes much less space. Propane won't vaporize in cold temperatures. Although gasoline is a choice, it is expensive and dangerous to store in volume and perhaps even illegal in your community.

Gas sold as "Propane" in the US remains in a gaseous state to -44*F. It's used in most northern states as one of the primary heating fuels.

However, everything labeled LP is not necessarily Liquid Propane. Gas sold as Liquid Propane by law has to be a minimum of 95% propane gas. In southern states some dealers sell "LP gas" which somewhat of a game of semantics. While it does generally contain 51% or more propane it is not required to be 95% pure propane, "Liquid Petroleum" gas can liquify as high as 31*F.

Around 20 years ago there were a couple dealers in Wisconsin who sold "LP" as Propane gas when it was actually "Liquid Petroleum" gas with a lower percentage of propane. Several customers had heating problems when the temperatures went below the freezing point. When service technicians came out to resolve the problem they discovered liquid in the lines. Eventually it was determined that the gas being sold as "Propane" didn't contain enough true propane to be sold as such. The dealers were fined, required pay the cost of repairs, pump out the remaining fuel and replace it with actual Propane gas. One dealer went out of business almost immediately. The other lasted a few more years but lost so many customers due to trust issues they also eventually went out of business.

 

[empower]

If you're all electric, how come so much ? Ours might have been that large, living in the woods with propane hot water, stove, and heat ... and it lasted two months between refills.

i didnt build the house... lol

 

[MrWhoopee]

a BAR is a "Browning Automatic Rifle", automatic, shoots a 30 ought 6 projectile, invented at the end of WW I and is Rambo's weapon of choice. PCP is an animal tranquilizer famous for giving people really bad paranoid experiences.

That was how I read it, gave me a momentary flashback and funny taste in my mouth.

The BAR was also Clyde Barrow's weapon of choice, stole them from National Guard armories.

 

[steve-l]

Just as a note, there is a lot less energy by volume in natural gas than in propane or LP. That said, the engine jetting must match the fuel being used accordingly.

 

[steve-l]

Gas sold as "Propane" in the US remains in a gaseous state to -44*F. It's used in most northern states as one of the primary heating fuels.

However, everything labeled LP is not necessarily Liquid Propane. Gas sold as Liquid Propane by law has to be a minimum of 95% propane gas. In southern states some dealers sell "LP gas" which somewhat of a game of semantics. While it does generally contain 51% or more propane it is not required to be 95% pure propane, "Liquid Petroleum" gas can liquify as high as 31*F.

Around 20 years ago there were a couple dealers in Wisconsin who sold "LP" as Propane gas when it was actually "Liquid Petroleum" gas with a lower percentage of propane. Several customers had heating problems when the temperatures went below the freezing point. When service technicians came out to resolve the problem they discovered liquid in the lines. Eventually it was determined that the gas being sold as "Propane" didn't contain enough true propane to be sold as such. The dealers were fined, required pay the cost of repairs, pump out the remaining fuel and replace it with actual Propane gas. One dealer went out of business almost immediately. The other lasted a few more years but lost so many customers due to trust issues they also eventually went out of business.

Good story. I read a few years ago the Mayor of a major city in Canada decided he would force the city to go green and modified all the city vehicles to LP gas including all the snow plows. . Then it got cold. It just goes to show the level of the basic sciences our leaders possess.

 

[EmGo]

I read a few years ago the Mayor of a major city in Canada decided he would force the city to go green and modified all the city vehicles to LP gas including all the snow plows. . Then it got cold. It just goes to show the level of the basic sciences our leaders possess.

Having lived in Anchorage I can say with some degree of certainty that at forty below, diesels and gasoline engines do not like to start either.

In fact even the sled dogs don't want to go outside much.

 

[projectnut]

Back in 2002 we were at a campground over the 4th of July weekend with our motorhome. We started smelling gas so we did a close inspection of all the appliances, hoses and tank. We found the blowout plug in the 30-gallon tank hadn't been welded in properly and was leaking. With all the surrounding campers setting off fireworks it wasn't a good thing so we called the local propane dealer to see if they could send a truck out to pump out our tank.

When it got there, I noticed the truck was diesel powered. I asked the driver why diesel power when you sell propane? His response was that even at the wholesale cost of propane diesel cost less per mile. At that time diesel was a little under $1.50 a gallon and propane was about $1.01 a gallon.

As it turned out there was no liquid valve on our tank to pump it back into the truck. Even though he had several empty cylinders along as well the amount in our tank was beyond what they would hold when pumped in a gaseous state. We ended up going to an abandoned field the company owned and hooking several hundred feet of hose to the fill port on the tank. The entire 30 gallons was vented off in the field. It took close to 2 hours to allow it to disperse with the wind and avoid accumulating concentrations high enough to potentially kill wildlife or possibly start a fire.

 

[hanermo]

Having lived in Anchorage I can say with some degree of certainty that at forty below, diesels and gasoline engines do not like to start either.

In fact even the sled dogs don't want to go outside much.

Sweden, Finland, Norway, pretty much all wealthy OECD countries - about 2/3 of all cars sold were diesel for about 20 years ..
now rapidly swithing to EVs.
Modern diesels work well in cold weather, and have the advantage that the fuel never goes bad if it´s cold.

You need the right diesel -- there is a winter mix.
All scandinavian gas stations use it during the colder times.
One also needs the right glow plugs and engine cpu.

Anything-diesel one bought now for more than 20 years in scandinavia will be extremely reliable and start 30 C below zero.
Essentially all freight, trucks, vans, working vehicles and most personal cars, 2/3, are diesel.

Now increasingly EV for cars, because it is 6x cheaper to use, or more.
Sure, cold weather can strip some range from an EV - 20 % seems about right.
But in Norway, very cold, about 70% of all new cars sold are EVs. Yr 2022/2023.

EV-Volumes - The Electric Vehicle World Sales Database

EV-volumes is a database of sales statistics, charging infrastructure, batteries, car models, and sales forecasts for plug-in cars. EV-volumes also delivers market studies and reports

www.ev-volumes.com

And the rest are mostly diesel.
The US has much less diesel cars, and light trucks, proportionally, than the rest of the world - mostly due to US legislation.

Long ago US Big Auto managed to make diesel cars and light trucks very expensive via tariffs to protect the US gasoline auto industry and the US gas industry.
Nothing wrong with that.
Your country, Your rules.

My previous car was a superb Nissan Quasqai SUV, 7 seats - diesel.
Current is Volvo V60 crossroad (high ground clearance, and really needed) - diesel.

The next, probably around 1-2 years from now, is likely to be a crossover SUV - EV.
Don´t care at all about running costs.
But must have big battery - the Tesla Lesson. And battery heat pumps for longevity and long range if ever Really Needed.

I do care about purchase price.
100.000€++ seems insane to me for an asset that will got to 10% of that in less than 8 years.

I believe that all ICE cars will essentially lose all residual value, in a sharp peak-ice-car move.
In china, the biggest auto market in the world, this has essentially happened 2022.
Pretty much all auto makers in china with ICE lost about 8% of unit sales - and EVs grew 40-50-60%, depending on measurements.
First time in the world for such ICE sales lost.

So, my 60.000 € Volvo will be worth about 1000 €, within about 2-3 years, -- not because it is obsolete or poor or old but because everyone is dumping their used bimmers, mercedes etc,

 

[G-ManBart]

well, my other thought for the generator was, that i have a 40x30' shop that eventually i'll have machines in, and from what i've read so far, they can put out 3 phase power, which would be very handy in that case. and then of course in the winter, solar wont do as much, and power outages do happen in winter storms, so while it may not be very active majority of the time, it'll still serve a purpose.

i was looking at the 26kw Generac from home depot, comes with a switch for 7k. there is a propane line nearby to where i think i'd mount it, so that shouldnt be a big deal. as well as installation i can handle with my brother and pops.

I'm just a bit south of you and also out in the country. We've been living here since 2011 and have had power outages that were 3-4 days at least three or four times and I can't begin to count the number of 24-48 hour outages. We went with a 20Kw Generac whole-house system with an automatic transfer switch a few months after moving in. In fact, we were doing a renovation during the first two months as we gradually moved in and that stopped because of a 4-day power outage.

The 20Kw Generac was the largest natural gas unit they offered at the time or we would have gone bigger because our house is fairly large and has two AC units. With no AC in the summer it would be unbearable because of the design...huge south facing windows and a great room with 22ft ceilings (not our design). The 20Kw unit just barely manages at peak load (and we are careful to reduce load during an outage).

About two years ago during an outage I noticed a bit of light flicker, put a meter on an outlet and saw the voltage fluctuating. I suspected the voltage regulator was failing, so I found a local tech to take a look and he confirmed that. He left us with a loaner part and told us to order the replacement on Amazon as they had the best price. He came back after the replacement part was in and swapped them out. When he looked at the run timer he was like "wow, you guys really have used this!" but I don't recall how many hours it was. I think the replacement voltage regulator was something like $400. That part, regular oil/filter changes and one valve adjustment is all I can remember it needing. Every time the power goes out and it kicks on my wife and I look at each other and say "best money we've ever spent".

I know we could survive with less, but I work for a living so I don't have to just "survive" when there's a widespread power outage.

We're moving when I retire in just over two years and the next house I plan to have a larger diesel standby setup with a large (like 1,000 gallon) tank. I'll use the tank to fill my tractor, skid steer, etc so the fuel gets replaced periodically. My plan is to build a shop building with an exterior enclosure for the generator and that will move it farther from the house so less noise and make it so it can be located right next to the diesel tank.

I've got a 52x64 shop building now, but it's 100yds from the house, so it's not tied into our generator. That wasn't by choice...just how things worked out. I'd like to be able to power both house and shop in the next house.

 

[G-ManBart]

there's a plug with a bigass switch next to my panel where he had it plugged in, i'm thinking i'd want a more permament installation?

Almost forgot this part. Is it a transfer switch that prevents you from back feeding the grid or just an on/off switch? Lots of people back feed their panel, but it's a really bad idea. If the main breaker is faulty, or if you forget to flip it, you can kill a line worker by sending power out to the lines they think have been disconnected.

 

[projectnut]

EV's may have their place, but at this point in time they don't have the range to replace gasoline or diesel-powered vehicles in this country. There was recently an article in Yahoo Finance about the Ford CEO taking a road trip in an F-150 Lightening. He described it as "challenging".

Ford CEO Jim Farley Test Drives an F-150 Lightning and Sees a Problem

Jim Farley took an F-150 Lightning to a charging station and wasn't impressed with what happened next.

finance.yahoo.com

This country doesn't currently have the infrastructure in place to adequately power 2% of the vehicles on the road switching to EV's let alone 20%. There are currently close to 291,000,000 cars on the road with slightly over 2,000,000 being electric. There aren't enough charging stations in place to even handle that volume.

The average distance driven on an annual basis is in the 14,000-mile range. The average range of the electric vehicle is slightly less than 235 miles. However, the charging time is a minimum of 30 minutes on a fast charger, and as much as 10 hours on a home charger. Depending on when and where you charge the car it could take annually between 34 hours and 460 hours. Compare that to a 5 minute stop every 400 miles (less than 3 hrs. per year) for a gasoline powered car and you can see why the electric vehicles aren't gaining popularity as quickly as some would hope.

I do believe there will be a time in this country when electric vehicles surpass gasoline powered ones. However I don't believe it will be within the next few years. At this time there is no standard for charging systems and not enough capacity in the electric grid to support the changeover. Both of these problems will take years to resolve which further complicates things.

 

[empower]

Almost forgot this part. Is it a transfer switch that prevents you from back feeding the grid or just an on/off switch? Lots of people back feed their panel, but it's a really bad idea. If the main breaker is faulty, or if you forget to flip it, you can kill a line worker by sending power out to the lines they think have been disconnected.

 

[Firstram]

To recap some of the above comments...I would look at the Honda 2000's. If one is not enough then get two, there is a cable to link them together so they work as one. They are quiet, and portable for many other uses. Buy them for or convert them to propane to make it harder for buddies to borrow them, and no gasoline issues after sitting for long periods of time.
The 3000's can also be linked but they are not as portable...

If you don't need 220, this is the way to go. I have 2 propane converted 2000's, one of them has handled hurricane duty for over 20 days total. I set up a second one as a backup for the backup. Portable, cheap to run and very reliable!

 

[amaranth]

Manual transfer switch. It's just a big 2 pole knife switch in that cabinet. They list new for around $700 but you can find them for half that if you look around. Automatic transfer switches are somewhat more pricey.

Fairly simple: Start generator, let idle for a couple minutes, turn off any big appliances that were on (drier, dishwasher, electric water heater, etc), flip switch.

The only downside to manual switches is if the power fails and you're not around, your refrigerators won't be running. Not really an issue if you're not planning on being gone for any length of time
.
I actually prefer manual switches. I keep the gas supply to my generator turned off when not needed. The generator shutoff valves do leak.

 

[EmGo]

Modern diesels work well in cold weather, and have the advantage that the fuel never goes bad if it´s cold.

Umm, it's fine and dandy to make these optimistic announcements but the reality of starting a car at minus forty is slightly different. Up in Fairbanks, where it could get to sixty below, they had to bring in the battery at night. No fun. In fact scary when you give her a crank and get rrrrr rrr rr ... silence ain't so golden ...

Which brings us back to the original subject - emp, if your location gets ice storms which bring down the power lines so you want electric when it's cold, the real problem you will have is starting the bitch. If your battery is not kept right up to snuff, when it's nasty cold, you'll get like three cranks of the engine before you're looking at a dead chunk of cast iron. So for use as a winter e-power backup, keeping your starting system up to snuff is super important. A pull cord option would be a good idea.

That's where detroit wins again, you can get spring starters that wind up, even for 671's so no starter batt, no problem Other generators should have recoil starters too but something to keep in mind ... the best laid plans of mice and men, the most likely time to find out your starter battery took a dump is when you need it.

 

[Gearclash]

Modern diesels work well in cold weather, and have the advantage that the fuel never goes bad if it´s cold.

Chuckle. Guy, I’ve had infinitely more problems with diesel fuel in cold weather than propane. And propane stores indefinitely. Try that with gasoline or diesel and see what happens.

 

[animal12]

Depending on your needs , the best setup in my book is to get one that runs @ the 1800 RPM range . In the Generac line that also gets you a liquid cooled unit , unless something has changed since the last one I dealt with . I put a 7k Generac on my folks house when I built it & that sucker ran for 49 hours solid when hiway 70 washed out in het mid 90 in our neck of the woods .
animal

 

[Greg White]

I am 20 miles west of you, our power juuuust came back a hour ago. silence!!!
the scream of the genset is gone. I put mine to close to the house.
bought the largest air cooled kolher they sold bought 10 years ago.
runs everthing cept my Matsuura.
propane here, best advice i got for you is, shop for price, i got quoted double for the unit I bought, a fella from south metro area of Deetroit sold me mine,he installed as well.
I shoulda put it behind barn here.
genset has been rock solid, quite a few 3-4 days of er runnin straight thru, plenty of 1/2 days on it as well,totaly auto start and stop, 2 seconds after power fails,she is lit.
Good luck at ya
Gw