powder mixed with water to harden into filler for iron porosity

[rustyironism]

Never heard of Marine Tex.
Available at Ace Hardware.
Sounds comparable to JB Weld, but 6 times the cost!

Mike

 

[rustyironism]

whoa, JohnEvans!
You hit it!
My foundry guy called the stuff Smooth-On, and I figured, hell, that's where I get most of my rubber and plastic from, so, no problem!
I called my distributor with no success.

I just looked through one of my "Dykes" , 20th edition 1943-45, and after some digging found Smooth-On iron cement!
...but don't see anything on page 814......

I will call the main office, instead of the distributor, to see if they have records of what it was and if still available!

Here is a link showing pre-teen Iron Cement ads.

Smooth-On Manufacturing Company

The Smooth-On Manufacturing Company was founded in 1895 (incorporated October 15, 1897) by Samuel D. Tompkins in Jersey City, New Jersey. Its industry is mold making and casting materials and and its headquarters were in Jersey City, New Jersey (1897-1967) and Macungie, Pennsylvania...

mycompanies.fandom.com

Thanks to everybody for their input!

Mike

 

[mnl]

Please let us know what you find out.

 

[rustyironism]

Found an instruction book and it confirms that this is the stuff.
Mix with water.

Smooth-On instruction book no. 18. : Smooth-On Manufacturing Company : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

144 p., ill., 15 cm., trade catalog

archive.org

Smooth-On says they quit making it in about the 1980s.
Occasionally get a call about it, but quit making it when there was no longer a market for it.
They do not have any lost in a warehouse.
They would not tell, or sell, the proprietary details.
Some of the chemicals in it are not legal to possess, I'm thinking asbestoes.
They would not mix up a batch, have no way to do it, and have nothing similar to offer.

An ebay search brings up many companies making what they call Iron Cement, partial cans being sold as antique displays.
One can says contains plaster of paris...

Yeah, yeah, wake up, it's a modern world, but I'm a dog on a hunt and I seldom stray from the Antique section of this website, anyway.

With so many companies having made a similar product, there must be some modern desire for it still, somewhere in the world.

I'm old enough that the 1980s is NOT that long ago.

...furnace cement seems to fit the bill, but does it contain sand ?, like has been mentioned to be hard on cutters.

Mike

 

[John Garner]

I don't recall seeing JB Weld being used in the manufacturing, assembly, or test facilities in a 40+ year hands-on career in the aerospace industry. I do remember seeing metal-filled epoxies used, from makers such as Devcon, Philadelphia Resins, Marine-Tex (all three now ITW products), Fel-Pro (epoxy product business now part of Henkel Loctite, IIRC), Kopps, PC Products, and a couple other makers.

Of those makers, Devcon and PC Products' filled epoxies are the only ones I've seen with a "consumer presence". Marine Tex seems to focus their marketing and sales efforts on the boating world, not on general industry.

 

[Bill D]

Back in the day egg whites were poured into the water jackets of cast iron engine blocks to seal up any porosity water leaks. Done at the factory and at repair shops.
Bill D

 

[magneticanomaly]

From Henley's Twentieth Century Book of Formulas, Processes, and Trade Secrets
Portland Cement 2 Ounces
Prepared Chalk 1 Ounce
Fine Sand 1 Ounce
Solution of Sodium Silicate, enough to form a semi-liquid paste

Or

30 parts Plaster of Paris
10 parts Iron Filings
1 part Sal Ammoniac mixed with Vinegar, to s fluid paste fresh for use

 

[dian]

as far as i know defects in castings are welded (at the foundry). if the porosity is "cosmetic" i would adhere to the recommendation for the coating that will be applied. dont use 200 years old recipies that might have worked for specific applications only.

 

[rustyironism]

as far as i know defects in castings are welded (at the foundry). if the porosity is "cosmetic" i would adhere to the recommendation for the coating that will be applied. dont use 200 years old recipies that might have worked for specific applications only.

Yeah, "curiosity killed the casting" could come into play using old formulas, but fascinating to see the solutions to the problems they encountered with materials and processes available at the time.

My foundry guy did weld up some spots where a sprue left a void and did a nice enough job that a smear of some kind of compound for cosmetics will be fine, whether it ends up being PC11A/B

Pc Products Epoxy Adhesive, 1:01 Mix Ratio, 12 hr Functional Cure 160114 | Zoro

Order Pc Products Epoxy Adhesive, 1:01 Mix Ratio, 12 hr Functional Cure, 160114 at Zoro.com. Great prices & free shipping on orders over $50 when you sign in or sign up for an account.

www.zoro.com

or if I can figure out what Prepared Chalk is in the formula above.

None of what I currently need is structural but I'd like something at least tough enough to handle some abuse, more than talcum based bondo.

Great advice from all, thanks!

Mike

 

[TedinNorfolk]

i think magneticanomaly just described Beaumonts Egg. This came up a lot when investigating the failure of the Tay Bridge. Apparently a lot of the columns were such poor castings that all the blowholes were filled up to hide them. Another old practice was to fill blowholes with lead,which I have seen a lot.

 

[dgfoster]

I don’t think (apologies if I missed it) you posted rough dimensions, a description of the defect or a pic of the casting and the defect. That would be helpful.

If I were making a cosmetic repair to an imagined vacuum defect roughly the size and shape of a cherry in one of the iron castings I pour, I’d simply use West System 2-part 1:5 epoxy (or System3 —also a reputable known maker) and color it with graphite and some white powder until it approximated the cast iron color. I would also use a small carbide burr and clean out and undercut the defect to get good filling and retention of the plug. Prime the hole with uncolored epoxy and then, while the “primer is still wet, press in the mixed epoxy for best adhesion.

Beware of “welding” done by “experts” who make good-looking fixes. There are many experts but a rare few who actually know how to do the repair with cast iron properly applied with using appropriate pre and post heating to get a true cast iron unhardened repair.

Denis

 

[rons]

Not saying it is better or cheaper, just a puzzle to try to find a product that has been successful for many years.

Probably because of research the newer products are more successful. I would be more concerned with color matching.
And that JB crap. Might make a average filler but I think everything I tried to glue never held.

 

[rustyironism]

Denis,
No, you didn't miss anything.
I 'm working on a project, but my question wasn't specific.
I started this as a general question about a substance that the foundry I use has used for years and is almost out and no record of what it was.
I never thought about West Systems, so I'll look into that.
Thanks.

I've had no problem with the foundry welding their voids as they make their own filler rod and I have to trust their experience and talents as to pre/post heat.

Here is the worst area on my current project.
Some of that surface gets ground away so it is not as bad as it looks.
It does not affect any structural integrity.
The area is mostly covered in the finished product, but I'd still like to fill it in a bit for my own satisfaction.

rons,
I see now that the PC11 I posted earlier is a white paste, but their PC7 is grey.
I don't know if that is the substance I'll try, but it will be covered in black paint, so color matching is not a concern on this project, but certainly something to consider.

I agree that my faith in JB Weld disappeared as an adhesive with some failures, but for small non-structural filler, it seems to be ok and readily available in a small quantity.
This whole 10,000 pound iron project shouldn't need 1/2 pint of cosmetic filler.

Mike

 

[dgfoster]

Denis,

I never thought about West Systems, so I'll look into that.
Thanks.

I've had no problem with the foundry welding their voids as they make their own filler rod and I have to trust their experience and talents as to pre/post heat.

I don't know if that is the substance I'll try, but it will be covered in black paint, so color matching is not a concern on this project, but certainly something to consider.



Mike

That is an odd-looking casting defect. I am not sure what caused it. Usually visual inspection gives pretty good clues. Did the foundry guys say what their understanding was?

Ir this is just a cosmetic defect to be covered in black paint, by all means just get out your die grinder and expose clean metal all over and near the defect. Get some West System or System Three epoxy and a can of their low density filler. Prime the area with mixed but not thickened epoxy and then immediately apply thickened epoxy paste mixed stiff enough to not run or sag. It will sand easily after setting and setting can be accelerated by placing the item in the sun or using a heat lamp to warm the surface. Most likely you’ll need to do 2 or 3 more minor applications to get it right.

Keep the epoxy handy for later general use. It will keep for years on the shelf and is still good (as West specifically states) even when darkened by age. I often mix it in tsp. quantities using 10cc syringes to measure the mix and then dispense it.

Denis

Added: The above comments all apply to the 1:5 epoxy products, not the “5-Minute” epoxies. I do use the 5 min epoxies also, but they do not spread or adhere as well and they are not as amenable to thickening and do not have long shelf lives.

 

[dian]

its a huge, flat area and the stuff comming off should be a concern. what is that thing? will is get warm/hot? how durable does it need to be (100 years)? even if you grind it to bare metal (not easy in this case) it will (very) slowly oxydize under an epoxy layer that eventually might come off. im just thinking aloud here, but maybe some metal coating like spray (→zinc?) or even soldering-paste would be appropiate?* not sure if a zink rich primer makes sence here.

for a 20-year repair use a professional base coat system designed (→acidic etching, inhibitors, conversion coat) for ci and apply thickened epoxy over it. for a bit more longevity you might look at industrial/buiding coating systems (e.g. by "sika"). these are hard to get in smaller quantities.

denis, how does soft solder stick to cast iron?

"properly applied with using appropriate pre and post heating to get a true cast iron unhardened repair":

i have always been wondering how they actually do it at the foundry. a big casting cannot be heated. do they hammer it or just use enough nickel or ...?

* then you need to use a primer suitable for these metals