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Pratt and Whitney

Totcha313

Plastic
Joined
Dec 21, 2023
Hi,
I’m new to this forum so hopefully I’m posting in the right place. I’m looking for any information someone may have on a Pratt and Whitney lathe. I believe it is dated around 1920. It is a 10 inch lathe. Any info would be greatly appreciated by me.
Thanks
 

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Chemical Operator. Been there for 43 years. I don’t know anything about lathes but am fairly mechanically inclined.

What was you profession?
I was a machinist , best place I worked was Rockwell's Santa Susana operation . After that I started a machine shop (85') folded it in 2010' and retired .
As for the restoration on your machine , sounds like you are going to have fun . Is the machine in place and running ?
 
I was a machinist , best place I worked was Rockwell's Santa Susana operation . After that I started a machine shop (85') folded it in 2010' and retired .
As for the restoration on your machine , sounds like you are going to have fun . Is the machine in place and running ?
No sir. I really wanted to run it but decided to restore it first. I would love hearing anything in regards to the restoration. Guessing my first question is whether or not any bearings will be difficult to find.
A little background on the lathe was it was located up by the Great Lakes in Ohio. A farmer owned it. Everything seems exceptionally tight. Appears to me that it hasn’t had all that much use.
 
No sir. I really wanted to run it but decided to restore it first. I would love hearing anything in regards to the restoration. Guessing my first question is whether or not any bearings will be difficult to find.
A little background on the lathe was it was located up by the Great Lakes in Ohio. A farmer owned it. Everything seems exceptionally tight. Appears to me that it hasn’t had all that much use.
So I traveled from Kentucky and picked it up. Paid 1,300.00 for it. It was originally priced at 1,800.00
 
Hopefully all it will need is a clean up and paint . Beginning this year I cleaned up two bench mills , first one was a Benchmaster . That one got a little involved because I had to get a lead screw nut and some bearings . Fortunately all that stuff was easily available to buy . The other machine was my Pratt & Whitney 3C mill , all it needed was a clean up and paint . The Benchmaster I sold the P&W I still have . For paint , I first used some stripper but only to get off "new" paint once I got down to factory paint I just cleaned it with acetone filled in chips with spot putty and painted with brush on Rustoleum . For Iron that I wanted to leave bare , I used Rustoleum rust remover gell and then Wd40 and 3M scotch bright pad .
I think the only way you will know if it needs a bearing is to run it , use it . It will be fun to inspect the spindle bearings and find out if they are Babbitt or bronze .
 
Hopefully all it will need is a clean up and paint . Beginning this year I cleaned up two bench mills , first one was a Benchmaster . That one got a little involved because I had to get a lead screw nut and some bearings . Fortunately all that stuff was easily available to buy . The other machine was my Pratt & Whitney 3C mill , all it needed was a clean up and paint . The Benchmaster I sold the P&W I still have . For paint , I first used some stripper but only to get off "new" paint once I got down to factory paint I just cleaned it with acetone filled in chips with spot putty and painted with brush on Rustoleum . For Iron that I wanted to leave bare , I used Rustoleum rust remover gell and then Wd40 and 3M scotch bright pad .
I think the only way you will know if it needs a bearing is to run it , use it .
I continue to look at paint colors. The original sea moss is in the running.
Black is in the running. Can’t decide.
 
I continue to look at paint colors. The original sea moss is in the running.
Black is in the running. Can’t decide
My thought was to replace all bearings if the cost isn't substantial. I am really interested in restoring old things and the lathe will make it much easier for my projects. I have put back, a couple projects already. Craftsman 1950’s drill presses. A delta/milwaukee drill press. A brass fire extinguisher. The old type brass cash register etc
 
Totcha313:

You have a good classic old lathe. In response to your wanting to replace bearings: This lathe has what are known as "plain bearings"- either made of bronze, babbitt, or simply bored into the cast iron. As such there really is no 'replacing'. The headstock spindle bearings should have their clearance checked before dismantling the lathe. If the clearance is good, leave well enough along. If the clearance in the headstock spindle bearings is excessive, then the clearance is adjusted by changing the shims between the bearing caps and the headstock body. I would not dismantle the headstock until you have checked the spindle bearing clearance. This is done as follows:

1. Get the lathe into a building where it is heated (assuming you are in a location where winters are cold), and let it sit for a few days to get up to ambient (room) temperature, at least + 50 degrees F. Cold oil in bearings can play tricks.

2. Lubricate the spindle bearings with ISO 46 oil (tractor hydraulic oil works fine for this). Turn the spindle by hand, grasping the cone pulley or chuck. If the spindle turns freely. That is one hurdle. Try to get the spindle turning as fast as you can by hand with the feed gears disengaged. If the spindle glides to a stop, this is a good sign. If it jerks to a stop, bearings may be set too tight.

3. Check the bearing clearances. Start by removing the chuck from the spindle. Engaging the back gears with the pin 'in' (bull gear pinned to the cone pulley) will lock the spindle. Put an adjustable wrench on one jaw of the chuck or put a short pinch bar thru the chuck jaws and give a hard downward yank on it. If the chuck does not 'break loose' on the spindle threads, try holding strain on the wrench or bar and giving the wrench or bar a shot with a dead blow hammer (or a 2 lb steel hammer if you do not mind battering your wrench or bar). A light to medium blow should be all that is needed.

4. Disengage the back gear, back off the thrust nuts (on the smaller end of the spindle where the feed gears are located). Older lathes often had a set of thrust nuts on the small end of the spindle to set the end thrust. Back these off if they are on your lathe. Do not remove them.

5. Setup a dial indicator so its tip contacts the spindle nose at the 12:00 position. Put a steel bar or long hardwood hammer handle into the spindle bore so you have a lever arm sticking out maybe 12 to 16 inches. Push down hard on this bar or handle, about 75 lbs of force or a bit more. While holding this, zero the dial indicator. This squeezes any oil out of the bearing and takes out any clearance between the spindle journal and the bearing at 6:00.

7. Pull UP on the bar with about 75 lbs of force or a bit more. You can also put some wood blocking on the lathe bed and use a pinch bar to pry the spindle up, protecting the spindle with a piece of brass, aluminum, or copper. I use about a 16" mechanic's pry bar when I check bearing clearances on plain bearing lathes in this size range.

8. While holding strain on the bar, read the dial indicator. This reading is the bearing clearance. Without knowing Pratt & Whitney's specifications or the diameter of the spindle journals, I am going to say that 0.0015" -0.002" max would seem about right.

9. Repeat the above steps for the 'tail' or small end bearing of the headstock spindle.

10. When you have these readings, you know what the bearing clearances are. I would hold off on adjusting bearing clearances (if needed) until you can put the lathe under power. Reason being that adjusting bearing clearances should be accompanied by a 'bearing heat run' to be sure the bearings do not come up rapidly in temperature when running and run too hot. Just adjusting clearances is usually enough, but a heat run to be sure there are no 'tight spots' is something I do, whether it is a small lathe or a 300 Mw hydro turbine.


You will find the rest of the lathe has a variety of bronze bushings or simply has steel shafts turning in bored fits in the cast iron parts of the lathe. The beauty of owning a lathe is that it can make many of its own parts. If you find a worn bronze bushing, you can make a replacement on the lathe, as well as turning a bushing driver. If a shaft is worn or scored, you remove it, chuck it in the lathe and polish with emery cloth, or take a skim cut... and make a bushing to fit the new diameter...

I would advise working on one are of your lathe at a time to do the cleanup. I differentiate between "cleanup" and "restoration" as a full-on restoration of a machine tool usually means checking and re-scraping every sliding or bearing surface such as the bedways, saddle, and dovetails to restore the original accuracy. Cleanup means just that: take apart, clean off accumulated grunge and old paint, stone off any raised 'dings' on the bedways or other machined/fitted surfaces, adjust headstock bearing clearances, repaint. Too many old machine tools wind up as "basket cases" when over-zealous owners take them apart and then get sidetracked or discover they have more of a job than they first anticipated. Old machine tools have parts that have "worn into each other" and may run well enough for home shop purposes. Taking things completely apart all at once can open a can of worms. If you do take things apart, match-mark mating parts withy light punch marks and/or scribed lines. Record measurements as-found. The use of a small oil stone ( an India Medium Hard stone) on sliding surfaces such as dovetails, gibs, bedways, to take down any raised burrs or dings is the way to go. No emery cloth or other abrasives on any of those surfaces. A scraper ("putty knife"0 along with steel wool and kerosene or penetrating oil to take off rust and grunge from the sliding surfaces, followed by feeling these surfaces with the heel of your hand or a lightly dragged fingernail if you see gouges or burrs or dings. Stone down any raised metal if you feel it. Old lathes are surprisingly tolerant and in the right hands, a worn old lathe can produce some very fine work without a 'full on' restoration. New paint looks pretty, as do shiny handles, but neither improves how an old lathe performs in terms of accuracy. Much rests with the person operating an old lathe to 'get out the work'. I have no problem getting fine work out of lathes with ridged wear on the bedways or what seems like a lot of backlash in the cross feed & compound rest feed screws. Pratt & Whitney had a reputation for building very fine machine tools. Your lathe looks to have come with a fair amount of tooling. The fact it has a handwheel collet drawtube, and collets points to maybe it being in a school or toolroom rather than being beat on in a production shop.
 
Totcha313:

You have a good classic old lathe. In response to your wanting to replace bearings: This lathe has what are known as "plain bearings"- either made of bronze, babbitt, or simply bored into the cast iron. As such there really is no 'replacing'. The headstock spindle bearings should have their clearance checked before dismantling the lathe. If the clearance is good, leave well enough along. If the clearance in the headstock spindle bearings is excessive, then the clearance is adjusted by changing the shims between the bearing caps and the headstock body. I would not dismantle the headstock until you have checked the spindle bearing clearance. This is done as follows:

1. Get the lathe into a building where it is heated (assuming you are in a location where winters are cold), and let it sit for a few days to get up to ambient (room) temperature, at least + 50 degrees F. Cold oil in bearings can play tricks.

2. Lubricate the spindle bearings with ISO 46 oil (tractor hydraulic oil works fine for this). Turn the spindle by hand, grasping the cone pulley or chuck. If the spindle turns freely. That is one hurdle. Try to get the spindle turning as fast as you can by hand with the feed gears disengaged. If the spindle glides to a stop, this is a good sign. If it jerks to a stop, bearings may be set too tight.

3. Check the bearing clearances. Start by removing the chuck from the spindle. Engaging the back gears with the pin 'in' (bull gear pinned to the cone pulley) will lock the spindle. Put an adjustable wrench on one jaw of the chuck or put a short pinch bar thru the chuck jaws and give a hard downward yank on it. If the chuck does not 'break loose' on the spindle threads, try holding strain on the wrench or bar and giving the wrench or bar a shot with a dead blow hammer (or a 2 lb steel hammer if you do not mind battering your wrench or bar). A light to medium blow should be all that is needed.

4. Disengage the back gear, back off the thrust nuts (on the smaller end of the spindle where the feed gears are located). Older lathes often had a set of thrust nuts on the small end of the spindle to set the end thrust. Back these off if they are on your lathe. Do not remove them.

5. Setup a dial indicator so its tip contacts the spindle nose at the 12:00 position. Put a steel bar or long hardwood hammer handle into the spindle bore so you have a lever arm sticking out maybe 12 to 16 inches. Push down hard on this bar or handle, about 75 lbs of force or a bit more. While holding this, zero the dial indicator. This squeezes any oil out of the bearing and takes out any clearance between the spindle journal and the bearing at 6:00.

7. Pull UP on the bar with about 75 lbs of force or a bit more. You can also put some wood blocking on the lathe bed and use a pinch bar to pry the spindle up, protecting the spindle with a piece of brass, aluminum, or copper. I use about a 16" mechanic's pry bar when I check bearing clearances on plain bearing lathes in this size range.

8. While holding strain on the bar, read the dial indicator. This reading is the bearing clearance. Without knowing Pratt & Whitney's specifications or the diameter of the spindle journals, I am going to say that 0.0015" -0.002" max would seem about right.

9. Repeat the above steps for the 'tail' or small end bearing of the headstock spindle.

10. When you have these readings, you know what the bearing clearances are. I would hold off on adjusting bearing clearances (if needed) until you can put the lathe under power. Reason being that adjusting bearing clearances should be accompanied by a 'bearing heat run' to be sure the bearings do not come up rapidly in temperature when running and run too hot. Just adjusting clearances is usually enough, but a heat run to be sure there are no 'tight spots' is something I do, whether it is a small lathe or a 300 Mw hydro turbine.


You will find the rest of the lathe has a variety of bronze bushings or simply has steel shafts turning in bored fits in the cast iron parts of the lathe. The beauty of owning a lathe is that it can make many of its own parts. If you find a worn bronze bushing, you can make a replacement on the lathe, as well as turning a bushing driver. If a shaft is worn or scored, you remove it, chuck it in the lathe and polish with emery cloth, or take a skim cut... and make a bushing to fit the new diameter...

I would advise working on one are of your lathe at a time to do the cleanup. I differentiate between "cleanup" and "restoration" as a full-on restoration of a machine tool usually means checking and re-scraping every sliding or bearing surface such as the bedways, saddle, and dovetails to restore the original accuracy. Cleanup means just that: take apart, clean off accumulated grunge and old paint, stone off any raised 'dings' on the bedways or other machined/fitted surfaces, adjust headstock bearing clearances, repaint. Too many old machine tools wind up as "basket cases" when over-zealous owners take them apart and then get sidetracked or discover they have more of a job than they first anticipated. Old machine tools have parts that have "worn into each other" and may run well enough for home shop purposes. Taking things completely apart all at once can open a can of worms. If you do take things apart, match-mark mating parts withy light punch marks and/or scribed lines. Record measurements as-found. The use of a small oil stone ( an India Medium Hard stone) on sliding surfaces such as dovetails, gibs, bedways, to take down any raised burrs or dings is the way to go. No emery cloth or other abrasives on any of those surfaces. A scraper ("putty knife"0 along with steel wool and kerosene or penetrating oil to take off rust and grunge from the sliding surfaces, followed by feeling these surfaces with the heel of your hand or a lightly dragged fingernail if you see gouges or burrs or dings. Stone down any raised metal if you feel it. Old lathes are surprisingly tolerant and in the right hands, a worn old lathe can produce some very fine work without a 'full on' restoration. New paint looks pretty, as do shiny handles, but neither improves how an old lathe performs in terms of accuracy. Much rests with the person operating an old lathe to 'get out the work'. I have no problem getting fine work out of lathes with ridged wear on the bedways or what seems like a lot of backlash in the cross feed & compound rest feed screws. Pratt & Whitney had a reputation for building very fine machine tools. Your lathe looks to have come with a fair amount of tooling. The fact it has a handwheel collet drawtube, and collets points to maybe it being in a school or toolroom rather than being beat on in a production shop.
Let me start out by saying that you guys and this site is priceless! The time you all are spending helping me is so generous of you all and more appreciated by me than you can imagine.
Joe,
Excellent advice and I will follow everything you said here. After reading what you stated I think it would be best to give it a great clean up and not the complete restoration, unless I have no choice. You no doubt have saved me from self infliction. Lol
It is my hope to start the clean up in April or so and will post some pics as I move along.

Few questions:
I don’t have a lead paint testing kit. Did they use lead paint on these lathes?
Regards to dial indicator, could you recommend a make and complete set up on what I will need. I have been looking at used ones.
 
My ever-so-humble opinion is to slather it in oil and fire it up first. It'll probably be good inspiration to remember that it works, and you'll know up front if there are any problems instead of wondering at the end if you did something wrong.
Tom,
Thank you so much. After doing the initial dial measurement I will take your advice and fire it up to see what I have, prior to my in depth clean up of this lathe. You guys are the best, thank you
 
Finally scared up the 14" scan. They were about 50 years into their corporate life - having started in 1860
A little book you may want to acquire
Accuracy for Seventy Years

Their building on Capitol Avenue is still there

Here is contemporary big brother 16 in both cone head and gear head
 

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Totcha 313:

Thanks for appreciating us. Sharing our knowledge by passing it along is its own reward.

Regarding lead paint: It is more likely than not. People slathering paint on the lathe over the past century as well as whatever fillers P & W used to prep the surfaces of the castings could have a variety of substances in them. I am no Rembrandt, and do not go in for the flawless gleaming paint jobs on my machine tools. My attitude is if they are clean and I can get the work out on them, fine by me. What I'd suggest is, if you want to paint the lathe:

1. Do not get crazy with stripping to bare metal. The lathe is made of iron cast in sand molds. Those castings had a rough surface 'as cast". The era the lathe was made predated things like angle grinders and flexible abrasive discs or other 'auto body sanders'. The castings came from the foundry and were 'fettled' (or 'snagged' as we sometimes said in the USA). This was a rough process to remove the gates, sprues (used to get the molten iron into the mold cavities) and any mold flash at the parting lines. It was done using hammers and chisels, air chipping guns, and large coarse grinding wheels when a man could pick up a casting and hold it against the grinding wheel. After that, some hapless apprentice boy would be handed the biggest and coarsest bastard cut file along with a cape chisel, cold chisel and hammer, and told to 'get the thickest off it', meaning dress up the castings to take down any remaining warts and bumps on the cast surfaces that were not going to be machined.

2. Once that bit of fettling was done, the castings were setup and machined. Bedways and dovetails along with mating parts like the lathe's saddle, cross slide, and compound slide were hand scraped to get final accuracy as well as the 'flake scraping' or "frosting" (resembling fish scales or crescent moons) to finish it. Nothing 'made the job' of finishing a machine tool or something related like a surface plate or angle plate like a good finish scraping job. This scraping brought the lathe to meeting or exceeding the specifications for things like parallelism of the spindle to the bedways, flatness of the ways over their entire length, perpendicularity of the cross slide to the ways and spindle centerline, etc.

3. Once the scraping was done, and the lathe partially assembled, it was prepped for painting. Again, this was an era when spray painting was not in common use. Even auto bodies were sometimes brush painted using special brushes and then hand sanded and hand rubbed. Getting back to the as-cast surfaces, the paint shop had their own blends of fillers. Auto body fillers had yet to be invented. Auto body seams and ripples in the sheet metal were 'leaded in' using lead-tin solder and rosin flux in those days. The paint shop at P & W likely had something (could have been cement, litharge, red lead...) mixed with paint or perhaps linseed oil and "Japan drier" to make a paste type filler. This was spread on the castings and slicked off to fill any little craters or rough spots which are common on sand cast iron.
The filler was then blended using rasps or abrasive paper, and on went a coat of primer. This was an oil-based paint. This was the era when house paints used white lead. I am old enough to remember "Dutch Boy" paints. The Dutch Boy took the name from the "Dutch Process" for making white lead, used in house paints and enamels. A few coats of enamel, brushed on with fine-hair brushes (badger's hair seems to ring a bell with what the oldtime auto body painters used), and some hand rubbing with pumice or the like and the lathe was finished.

4. You are opening another can of worms if you want to take the lathe down to bare cast iron. Get a respirator with good cartridges, wear it when prepping the lathe for paint, and use a shop vacuum to keep up with the dust. If possible, work outdoors for prepping. Scrape off any peeling or loose paint. If the paint is heavily slathered on with multiple coats and is peeling in places, an air needle scaler does wonders, but will get down to bare iron. I use an air needle scaler for prepping steel for paint, as well as for cleaning welds and 'peening' to relieve weld stresses. An air needle scaler makes short work of prepping, and will chew through years of slathered on paint, but will also eat any filler as a snack. It's your call. The air needle scaler will leave a clean 'frosted' metal surface which paint will readily adhere to.
A 4 1/2" angle grinder with flexible abrasive discs will do the job of prepping the surfaces, but do not be surprised if suddenly you see a stream of something powdered or granular coming off the sanding discs. That is the old time filler material. Sand just enough to blend things and leave well enough alone.

5. I use "Rustoleum" enamels for painting my machine tools. They go on easily with a brush, have a fairly quick setting and drying time, and seem to 'self level' to blend out brush stroke marks.

Noting your work experience as a chemical plant operator, I am sure you are no stranger to Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), including respirators and things like "Scott Air Packs". If for no other reason than to avoid inhaling airborne particulates when you are prepping for painting the lathe, wear a respirator. I have an MSA full face respirator in my own gear. We only get one body and it does not take much to do permanent and debilitating damage to it. I would not get crazy and start testing for lead paint. Assume it is a given and plan your work accordingly. Once you lay the new paint on the lathe, you effectively encapsulate any underlying lead based paint. I am sure from your work experience, you know the precautions to take for this sort of thing.
 








 
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