Tinkering makes a comeback - WSJ article

[macona]

Oh, one of our members did make a MakerBot. You can see it in this picture:

The quality of product is pretty rough, but it works.

 

[Maxim]

Wow, for once I'm ahead of the social curve.


I didn't know you ran a shop like that Macona.

If you could just pipe in silane and an assortment of hydrides to your vacuum system you could make your own semiconductors.

 

[DocsMachine]

The reality is neither one of us knows for sure what the majority of the folks in the article are using. Interesting concept to have "The Truth" already figured out, without any actual machine survey results.

-Who needs a survey? I'll admit they're secondhand numbers, but supposedly Taig alone is making something like 2,000 machines a month, and occasionally gets backordered. One can probably presume with some accuracy that Sherline is making roughly a like number, and I'm told the Seigs, too, are flying off the shelves.

In any case, the article- like any newspaper article- covers only a small slice. You refuse to allow the "hobby" stuff in here so tend to be a bit insulated. One only has to read MAKE:Blog for a few weeks to see the number of homebrew machines is easily in the hundreds, if not thousands, and growing exponentially. On my own board, there's perhaps as many as two people that own their own proper CNC- one has an old VMC, the other a reworked Tree knee mill. On the other hand, there's probably better than two dozen that own a Taig or Sherline, and likely another dozen with DIY conversions to minimills and mill-drills. Several of both camps actually produce and sell product made on them.

I'm not saying you're "wrong", but I am pointing out you're not entirely right either. And as I said, it's an interesting dichotomy when one watches you lock thread after thread of "hobby" machine questions- typically in a rude manner that virtually assures that questioner will never return, which I'm sure you're perfectly fine with- but then turn around and say you welcome these "CNC hobbyists", despite the fact they often use exactly the same machines.

Doc.

 

[John Welden]

John, I hate to tell you but....a guy in his dorm room is a child, so "childs play" fits them. On the other hand you are underestimating the youth of today. Those kids in the dorm can make the gears for a transmission...if they want to. If not right away, they can figure it out, the data and instructions are available to them.

All I'm saying is that there isn't an easy replacement for a good machinist.

 

[Pete F]

Having copped a dressing down yesterday for asking about drill grinders that were most certainly NOT designed for the home workshop but happened to be made in Asia (as are the majority of the world's machines these days). I've looked at them but not personally used them and they seem solid and well made. However due to the forum rules I'm not allowed to ask what they're like in practice so chances are nobody here actually knows what they're like unless they went out and bought one. Bizzare! I certainly feel I can understand where Doc is coming from.

I can understand that this is a forum for professional level machines and techniques and not a DIY forum, but it does seem at times that some are building a wall around themselves and hoping like hell that when they open their eyes again the real world will have gone away. Well good luck with that is all I say. It's a fine line to determine what constitutes home or "hobby" use and what constitutes a professional level machine. I've been in some shops with crap everywhere filled with absolute POS equipment yet they turn out the most amazing precision optical equipment. By the same token I've seen some filled with the latest and greatest (educational "institutions" are the classic example) who boast what they have but when you ask what they ACTUALLY do with all their fancy equipment more often than not, other than playing, they produce nothing of significance ... but hey it sure looks good on paper. I'm not here to upset anyone, but in my humble opinion to make blanket statements like "it's Asian therefore it's crap" or "we never buy ANYTHING from Harbor Freight" is elitist and naïve and has absolutely no bearing on what the person or organisation is capable of producing. We have a saying in cycling, no doubt stolen from elsewhere, for the guy who shows up with the latest and fanciest bike, then gets dropped on the first hill or surge in a race ... "All the gear and no idea".

As for CNC I'm no expert but tinkered, and from what I've come across can confirm what Doc is saying, most is modified Asian equipment and it would be the exception to find somebody taking an industrial machine and adding CNC as a first time project. Of the machines capable of useful work the Sieg series of machines are especially popular. Turn the cranks by hand and they're an Asian hobby POS, turn the cranks by computer and they're a great machine worthy of discussing here. Apparently

 

[drakers007]

There's always room for more inovators

I myself am very happy to see a trend towards people exploring their God given creativity and developing new talents. Not every tinkerer is going to emerge from their repective workshops / garages / labs as a Edison or Wright Brother but these folks should be encouraged in fact strongly encouraged to excel! Learning how to do things well on a small scale will no doubt help these folks in whatever they intend on doing in the future... be that producing fantastic machinery or learning something about themselves that could only be gained trying something new.

Since alot of these folks are going to gravitate toward a site such as this in their individual quests (I found it by dumb luck). The members here are contributing to a growing treasure trove of insight and knowledge which will be a great legasy for people when we're all dead and gone... But since we're all still alive and kicking, let's enjoy the ride.

I'd like to say thank you to all the folks who contribute their time, wit and thoughtful consideration to the wide variety of problems and questions posed on this site... I've been poking around this site for some time now and some of the topics and discussions certainly give me something to think about.

 

[DocsMachine]

All I'm saying is that there isn't an easy replacement for a good machinist.

-Yes, but the 'tinkerers' are at least motivated in that direction.

Sometimes people forget we don't have a system of apprenticeship in this country anymore, and damn few schools even have vocational programs. Today, if you want to learn something your school isn't teaching you, you have to do it on your own dime, in your own time.

The sophomore in high school tinkering with a couple of salvaged steppers today, IS the CNC machinist of tomorrow. Should we discourage the kid cutting bicycle chain sprockets out of delrin on a homebrew duct-tape-and-zip-ties CNC, because he's not making aerospace-quality parts or doesn't yet know how to run a full-size VMC?

Doc.

 

[DBurnette]

All the manual machines are Logan, South Bend, Bridgeport, Gorton, etc. We do have a Jet lathe and Enco mill though, but we didnt pay for them.

We have three furnaces, the largest capable of melting cast iron. There is also a heat treat oven.
-Jerry
http://portlandtechshop.com

I know that some colleges have a 'no ferrites' rule for their mills and lathes...Which makes sense given that some student will undoubtedly try to machine inconel with an HSS bit and feed it like its a hunk of brass. I take it TechShop PDX lets people cut what they want after they've been trained?

I'm also wondering how many pounds that furnace is capable of... But I've been itching for a local TechShop for some time, so when I move to Portland next year, I guess I will be dropping by

 

[macona]

I dont allow graphite, wood, or composites on the lathes and mills. We also have the members supply their own cutting tools for the lathes, mills, and CNC Router. I tell them not to buy cheap chinese crap but they dont listen. Best was when a guy was making a flycutter. He was tapping the set screw holes that hold the cutter 1/4-28. He's fighting it so he brings it to me. Of course, cheap chinese tap. First few teeth on the tap are gone now. I grabbed a nice OSG gun tap out of my stash and he watches with amazement as it cuts the threads with no effort. Made a believer out of him! Couldnt of asked for a better way to show you get what you pay for!

Same guy buys a nice niagra end mill but too cheap to buy a piece of steel with a known background. Got it from a scrap yard. Hit a hard spot and chipped it. So much for the money saved on the mystery metal...

The two smaller furnaces will hold a #10 crucible. Thats 10 pounds of aluminum or about 30 lbs bronze. The large furnace will hold a bigger crucible.

Might be getting a cupola so we can do steel!

 

[lazlo]

Oh, one of our members did make a MakerBot. You can see it in this picture:

The quality of product is pretty rough, but it works.

I still think it's pretty amazing that Maker is selling kits for the RepRap for $750. They can't make them fast enough!

The mechanicals on the first-gen RepRap are pretty primitive (MakerBot is a kit of the first gen machine). I think they went a little overboard with the goal of the machine being able to make parts for itself.

But the second-gen ReRap is vastly improved (although I think there's still a lot of room for improvement on the PVC hot extrusion gun):

http://vimeo.com/6983001

By the way, I mentioned earlier that RepRap is an OpenSource project -- you can download the solid models in SolidEdge and SolidWorks, so if you're bored and have some spare time on the CNC at work

 

[Milacron]

FWIW, in case WSJ changes or locks the link in the future, I just now edited the original post to include the entire article.

 

[slufkin]

Big innovations from little guys

I'm sure someone will correct me promptly, but it seems to me that most of the big world changing innovations have been brought about by a 'normal' guy or gal who was very commited to one thing, and spent all their time Tinkering on it on their own dime.
They are not usually brought out by a big corporations R&D department. Those are the guys who find innovative ways to make things better, faster, cheaper.
Granted, the whole semiconductor industry has pretty much always been big business, but aside from that, it seems like Tinkers have always been the ones making the big splashes.
I honestly think it will be the Woodshed Tinkers in this country who solve our current Energy Crunch.
Do you guys agree with that, or do you think the answers will be brought foreward by the Big Wigs out there?

 

[JST]

Innovations may be thought up by small guys, but these days it often takes a corporation to make them work.

First, you so often need to have materials science folks as well as engineers and then the "inventor", whose input often is just an idea and a crude proto, plus maybe a patent.

Inventors invent, corporations develop. That seems to be a rule. Not surprising, corporations have the money, or access to it. The point in the process that the money comes in is getting earlier and earlier.

That said, it isn't cut and dried that way, and the nature of innovations is that they are not thought about until suddenly they ARE thought about. So foreseeing the next, and predicting the resources needed to develop it is pretty silly as a concept....

And, corporations have middle managers. The nature of a middle manager is often one that keeps everything stable, no surprises, including innovations. After all, if a middle manager were really hot stuff, they would no longer BE a middle manager......... So they often act as dampers and wet blankets.

 

[metlmunchr]

I think its great to see this happening. One of the most positive aspects is that these aren't people who spend their time thinking about ways to get things made in China for a nickel apiece, but rather people who like to make things. No doubt some of them will end up as CEO's of their own big companies in the future, as a direct result of their tinkering, and when they get to that point they'll likely still know every step of every process that goes on within their business.

The sad part of the whole picture is that we've come to the point where so much of US manufacturing is run by MBA's with no knowledge of the nuts and bolts, or even any interest in learning. Would anyone around 100 years ago have believed we'd get to the point where independent tinkering and inventing would be considered a novel or newsworthy activity? Novel or not, I see it as a sign that at least some part of the population is headed in the right direction.

The best imaginable scenario IMO would be tens of thousands of businesses run by these tinkerers who'd make a special effort to reach out to all the unemployed MBA's, and help them out by putting a broom in their hands

 

[PDW]

I think its great to see this happening. One of the most positive aspects is that these aren't people who spend their time thinking about ways to get things made in China for a nickel apiece, but rather people who like to make things. No doubt some of them will end up as CEO's of their own big companies in the future, as a direct result of their tinkering, and when they get to that point they'll likely still know every step of every process that goes on within their business.

The sad part of the whole picture is that we've come to the point where so much of US manufacturing is run by MBA's with no knowledge of the nuts and bolts, or even any interest in learning. Would anyone around 100 years ago have believed we'd get to the point where independent tinkering and inventing would be considered a novel or newsworthy activity? Novel or not, I see it as a sign that at least some part of the population is headed in the right direction.

The best imaginable scenario IMO would be tens of thousands of businesses run by these tinkerers who'd make a special effort to reach out to all the unemployed MBA's, and help them out by putting a broom in their hands

I've been watching this trend for 30+ years and my conclusion even back then, was that the original articles of association for a manufacturing company should specify that the top positions must be held by qualified engineers. They can also have finance degrees, probably need them to run a really big company, but they must have an engineering degree or equivalent 'hands on' experience.

So if any of you are thinking about incorporating, consider how you write the articles of association. They can always be amended of course, but at least it sends a signal from the founders.

On topic, I've been thinking of getting a desktop milling machine for a few years now, but it would just be a toy to learn/play with. More power to the people who have them, regardless of where the hardware comes from.

PDW

 

[jkilroy]

There is hope for this country yet! Can I get a witness? Lets have a big Amen!

Of course I've been this way since I was three when my grandmother gave me real tools (Craftsman) as a gift.

 

[hickstick_10]

I think its great to see this happening. One of the most positive aspects is that these aren't people who spend their time thinking about ways to get things made in China for a nickel apiece, but rather people who like to make things. No doubt some of them will end up as CEO's of their own big companies in the future, as a direct result of their tinkering, and when they get to that point they'll likely still know every step of every process that goes on within their business.

The sad part of the whole picture is that we've come to the point where so much of US manufacturing is run by MBA's with no knowledge of the nuts and bolts, or even any interest in learning. Would anyone around 100 years ago have believed we'd get to the point where independent tinkering and inventing would be considered a novel or newsworthy activity? Novel or not, I see it as a sign that at least some part of the population is headed in the right direction.

The best imaginable scenario IMO would be tens of thousands of businesses run by these tinkerers who'd make a special effort to reach out to all the unemployed MBA's, and help them out by putting a broom in their hands

+1 on this
These intrepid people need to be encouraged, and as for there equipment and skills, i know i made some real stinker moves when i was an apprentice. We all started somewhere, and just because some kid has a sherline in his dorm he shouldn't be judged, but commended because hes doing this ON HIS OWN TIME. We all started somewhere.

Its pretty obvious some of these people are taking engineering diploma courses or the degrees. Does anyone here have any idea how intense an engineering course is? Well i do (left the shop after apprentiship to try for a degree) and its amazing this kid is using what little spare time he has, this is outstanding because I have heard some of my classmates talk about there fabrication class in scorn saying they "just want a grade" and could give a damn about building anything.

We need to over hype this, because then there will be less soft handed sh!ts who are nothing but soulless number crunchers coming out of universities and trying to bring us into another technological age. And as far as comparing the efforts of these students to a real machinists, personally I dont agree with that, because again we all started somewhere and thats akin to comparing your boxing skills to those of a 10 year old boy.

No these kids probably wont be able to gear up the dividing head to the table screw and cut a helical gear just like you, me or grandpa used to, at least not yet, but with proper encouragement they may invent something were we wont need to use gears for motion translation, ever think of that?

Regards
Mike

 

[Pete F]

There is hope for this country yet! Can I get a witness? Lets have a big Amen!

I think RepRap is actually from the UK

 

[dazz]

In my part of the world the "mens shed" concept is growing in popularity. They are run as non-profit volunteer organisations to get retired men out of the house and doing something (tinkering) to keep them occupied. Search Google for "mens shed" for more info.

I am fascinated by the TechShop concept as a profit making business. I am interested enough to have spent a significant amount of time creating a business model. I have both an Engineering and Finance degree (yes, I know what your thinking, one more strike and I am out) and financial modeling is a normal part of my day job.

I could not get the Techshop concept to make a reasonable profit on this side of the planet. I calculated I would need at least 650 membership. I understand the Melno Park Techshop now has about 600 members.

On the income side, tinkerers aren't going to pay too much to tinker a few hours a week. For someone doing commercial work, $125 per month is too low a price to charge. It would be difficult to charge them "commercial" rates if they can do what they want to achieve on tinkers rates.

Other income streams would include training courses, materials, tooling, food but these would be limited by how much individual members might spend. A member is not going to do 100 courses a year.

The killer is labour costs and building lease costs.

To work this as a business would require a high population density (no room for home workshops and not too far to travel), affluence (with sufficient disposable income and spare time) and educated customers.

I think there is a future for the Techshop concept, but not here and not yet. I could be wrong.

 

[macona]

We are looking at 500 members to break even. We do have commercial rates as well, but have not had any need to use them. We wont allow any one person to hog a machine.

Other sources of income are private work spaces, offices for rent, storage, materials, etc.

Lease and utilities are murder. Labor is not too big of a deal. Its amazing how many people will trade 8 hours a week for a free membership. I have two levels of volunteer, first is office help. The watch the front counter, answer phones, and give tours. The get free membership plus one basic class a month. Pretty much anyone will qualify for this position. The second level is shop supervisors. They get all classes free. For this I only select those that have background in some sort of industry like fabrication, shop teachers, cabinetmaking, machinists, etc. Going to the local community college dosnt count. Being a supervisor is much like babysitting except adults dont listen as well as children.

We get a lot of the "I already know how to use this tool, why should I take a class for it." Two reasons, one, insurance requires everyone to be trained. Two, money.

One of the biggest issues though is everyone wants it for nothing. Everyone want to do this and that at TechShop but when we ask how it is going to help make payroll they get a blank look on their faces. We offer woodworking classes through Portland Community College but we get so little out of it it really does not make it worth while. Very few of the students come back for memberships.

The biggest thing going in to a venture like this is make sure you have a good chunk of change to start. I would say about $750K to $1M to do it right. We are doing it all from individual investors, no banks involved.

We have a lot of members from the high tech fields, quite a few members from intel.