5 Axis Machine vs part choice

[GiroDyno]

This guy gets some parts our size done on this big 650mm Hermle C400 machine.
With this crazy vise.

Does that machine have separate through spindle coolant and oil lines? Was definitely not the same stuff dripping off the tap as the drills...

 

[Houdini]

Does that machine have separate through spindle coolant and oil lines? Was definitely not the same stuff dripping off the tap as the drills...

Looks like he did a video cut and added tapping fluid to the tap and or holes to me.

 

[kyleisraaddd]

If I had any input I would say opt for a 500mm
-making tiny parts on it is a breeze with a riser as many have stated.
-pyramids + even small tombstones really come in handy.

Four-Sided Mini Tombstone, Aluminum 8 Positions

This 4-sided dedicated V75100X vise tombstone allows for mounting of up to 8x V75100X vises. The RockLock compatible tombstone can be mounted onto any 96mm RockLock base. 96mm spacing on the bottom of the tombstone. 4x PS20F are included....Read More from Four-Sided Mini Tombstone, Aluminum 8...

5thaxis.com

I'm probably about to get a few of these for our new matsuura mx330 pc10
aluminum tombstone for weight savings (mx330 max is like 176lbs IIRC)
can slap eight 75mmx100mmx56mm vises on there
seems like it will be nice for higher quantity gravy 3-4 axis work we get.

I know there are reservations about 5th axis shit but if anyone also has any recommendations on something better/similar I am open
I figured it won't matter as I actually need aluminum for the weight.

going Lang for the new MAM72

 

[ducesrwld]

if most of the current opportunities are parts the size of your fist what about slapping a trunnion on one of your mills to get your feet wet? another route that is easier on the wallet and gets you started in the 5ax big boy playground.

 

[Houdini]

if most of the current opportunities are parts the size of your fist what about slapping a trunnion on one of your mills to get your feet wet? another route that is easier on the wallet and gets you started in the 5ax big boy playground.

I need the other machines open.
and they are Haas's I won't give Haas anymore money.
But I just don't like the idea of a trunnion added on anyway.
I prefer having a purpose built machine personally.

 

[BROTHERFRANK]

This type of thing always comes to play in my head, because of tool and die, when you need to drill water jackets all the way through mold plates for years,
makes you really conscious of Z travels, and long tools, and long tool changes.
This Z understanding is one of the cons of the Speedio U500 5ax 12" Z yuk!

Have you checked out the M300Xd1 5AX? About 15" Z travel, from 4.7" to 19.7" above the tilting centerline. Table face plate is 1.2" below the tilting centerline so spindle face is about 21" above table at home. Jig area is about a 17.7" Diameter cylinder, 14" tall. 28 Tools, Big Plus, 1000 psi CTS, 16k rpm milling spindle, 3 Gb memory, TCP, 1000 block look ahead, zero backlash A and C and 1500 rpm turning capability standard.

 

[JtM90]

If machine size vs. part size is a concern, i would look at a Grob G350.

I worked and programmed on such a machine and i loved it.
It is horizontal which i just better for milling and drilling, and thanks to the "tunnel concept" you can load the bigest possible parts and still be able to work with tools that are 400mm long.
I did that and it worked flawlessly.

I would not consider it if you need high precision. A Hermle is slighty more accurate (especially if you need all 5 axis).
I also dont know the support in America, which is also important.

 

[empower]

If machine size vs. part size is a concern, i would look at a Grob G350.

I worked and programmed on such a machine and i loved it.
It is horizontal which i just better for milling and drilling, and thanks to the "tunnel concept" you can load the bigest possible parts and still be able to work with tools that are 400mm long.
I did that and it worked flawlessly.

I would not consider it if you need high precision. A Hermle is slighty more accurate (especially if you need all 5 axis).
I also dont know the support in America, which is also important.

that layout is very sexy indeed, do they have better spindle options these days? i remember their standard was 16k, 24k (no balls) and high torque 12k iirc.
support is good in the states, i know people that have them and they're very happy. you're right on accuracy, both hermle and GF are a little bit better on that.

 

[JtM90]

Dont think there was much change in the spindle lineup. But we had the 16k version and i was happy with that. Could handle fairly big insert mills and was also fast enough for most small mills.
But to be fair we had 5 Colibri toolheads in the machine, for very small drills (0.4mm) and mills (<1mm).

https://colibrispindles.com/

 

[Houdini]

Have you checked out the M300Xd1 5AX? About 15" Z travel, from 4.7" to 19.7" above the tilting centerline. Table face plate is 1.2" below the tilting centerline so spindle face is about 21" above table at home. Jig area is about a 17.7" Diameter cylinder, 14" tall. 28 Tools, Big Plus, 1000 psi CTS, 16k rpm milling spindle, 3 Gb memory, TCP, 1000 block look ahead, zero backlash A and C and 1500 rpm turning capability standard.

This was a contender, it is smallish, the limited tools is a killer, and I watched some videos of it, and on off axis drilling I could actually see the part moving.
The machine doesn't brake very strong, I talked to Yamazen about it, they kinda just hushed away from the question, So I assume they know it isn't very rigid on off axis torque.

 

[Houdini]

Yeah talking Hermle and Grob is great except the fact of ROI, and need.
All the parts I need this machine for have wood worker tolerances, So not only do I not need a $400-600k machine, its only value I would see in the context would be if it lasted longer before maintenance.
Its higher quality, higher priced parts, high precision, ......none of that would be seen or returned on inexpensive low tolerance parts.

I Know I wish I could rationalize a standard machine starting at $400k, but, not realistic.
As far as business and making money on the parts coming in, I could buy 2 of the Mazak machines for the cost of 1 real machine.
or heavy automation. or even a Mazak and a Speedio M300-5ax

The reason I wouldn't buy a entry level Hermle that I have seen, and why I would buy the GF over it,
The Hermle better designed bridge style means automation is from the front only.
GF has side automation capability, leaving the door accessible.

The spindle even though it has the cheaper when damaged cartidge design, is grease packed, and has to be cooled down during longer runs.
had a lot of people report replacing spindles on them because of this.
GF is air/oil and liquid cooled.

The tool changer is a part of the machines casting, and has very minimal tool holders/
since you cannot change the tool changer, you must add an external carousel that costs $60k

You can get a Hermle C250 and the external 60 tool carousel for $400k
but with the spindle and the front load automation it kinda blows for the money your out.

In the end though, the parts for this machine dont need or give the ROI for a real machine, as a employee I would love it, as a business owner, I gotta do what is cost effective.
especially I want to retire in 10, So dont want to pay an extra $200k.

 

[empower]

Yeah talking Hermle and Grob is great except the fact of ROI, and need.
All the parts I need this machine for have wood worker tolerances, So not only do I not need a $400-600k machine, its only value I would see in the context would be if it lasted longer before maintenance.
Its higher precision, higher priced parts, high precision, ......none of that would be seen or returned on inexpensive low tolerance parts.

I Know I wish I could rationalize a standard machine starting at $400k, but, not realistic.
As far as business and making money on the parts coming in, I could buy 2 of the Mazak machines for the cost of 1 real machine.
or heavy automation. or even a Mazak and a Speedio M300-5ax

The reason I wouldn't buy a entry level Hermle that I have seen, and why I would buy the GF over it,
The Hermle better designed bridge style means automation is from the front only.
GF has side automation capability, leaving the door accessible.

The spindle even though it has the cheaper when damaged cartidge design, is grease packed, and has to be cooled down during longer runs.
had a lot of people report replacing spindles on them because of this.
GF is air/oil and liquid cooled.

The tool changer is a part of the machines casting, and has very minimal tool holders/
since you cannot change the tool changer, you must add an external carousel that costs $60k

You can get a Hermle C250 and the external 60 tool carousel for $400k
but with the spindle and the front load automation it kinda blows for the money your out.

In the end though, the parts for this machine dont need or give the ROI for a real machine, as a employee I would love it, as a business owner, I gotta do what is cost effective.
especially I want to retire in 10, So dont want to pay an extra $200k.

Mill E500 with pallet pool should be around 400k iirc. 60 tools.

 

[Houdini]

Mill E500 with pallet pool should be around 400k iirc. 60 tools.

I was thinking regardless of the macheen a Erowa Compact 80 and using the 6" pucks, it holds 60 of those pucks.
This is when I realized the F'd up situation with the high end 5 axis bridge, needing through the fron door automation.

These guys have it setup from the side, leaving the front open for setup and first article.(mo betta)

 

[empower]

GF owns system 3r btw, and you can get just about any kind of automation on their machines. the typical 7 pallet pool can easily be configured for 20 pallet 8" pucks. one of the places i worked at had a XSM600 with that pallet setup, super sweet!

 

[Houdini]

GF owns system 3r btw, and you can get just about any kind of automation on their machines. the typical 7 pallet pool can easily be configured for 20 pallet 8" pucks. one of the places i worked at had a XSM600 with that pallet setup, super sweet!

Yeah I saw this dude, sweet setup, if it was the 600 probably would have gotten it.
GF 400

 

[TKassoc]

Yeah I saw this dude, sweet setup, if it was the 600 probably would have gotten it.
GF 400

Watch out for random low priced Mikron on eBay. There's a very real chance that came from a dental manufacturer, ran DI water for coolant, and will be corroded to oblivion when you see it up close.

 

[Houdini]

Watch out for random low priced Mikron on eBay. There's a very real chance that came from a dental manufacturer, ran DI water for coolant, and will be corroded to oblivion when you see it up close.

Yeah that is an issue, especially small form factors.
I came from the dental CNC green state ceramic field.
I wouldn't ever buy a used machine anyway, in the least people crash machines, or don't take care of them.

 

[chineshop_guy]

if you can seriously retire in 10 years, which would be my main focal point, just hold your nose and buy the haas if it'll produce what you need.
sorry empower
i certainly understand wanting something besides a haas but....................??????

 

[BROTHERFRANK]

This was a contender, it is smallish, the limited tools is a killer, and I watched some videos of it, and on off axis drilling I could actually see the part moving.
The machine doesn't brake very strong, I talked to Yamazen about it, they kinda just hushed away from the question, So I assume they know it isn't very rigid on off axis torque.

You know what happens when you assume things... The clamp torque is very substantial. All M300Xd1 in Yamazen stock have double A axis brake with 800 lb/ft holding power. C axis is 330 lb/ft. To put that in perspective that is about the same as the very stout Yukiwa TNT-170 tilting rotary and much more than the Nikken 5AX-201... I have clients machining good sized 17-4 H900 parts on M200 fixtured about 8" away from the face plate with zero troubles, M200 has less clamp torque than M300. Also have a client with a TNT-170 on a W1000 High Torque machining large inconel parts with no troubles. Sorry you didn't get good information. I hope this helps.

 

[Houdini]

if you can seriously retire in 10 years, which would be my main focal point, just hold your nose and buy the haas if it'll produce what you need.
sorry empower
i certainly understand wanting something besides a haas but....................??????

I am retiring(hopefully) and my son is taking it over, So, no Haas!