If you want to see what they can offer don't give them anything till they are on site and then give them the file and watch how long it takes them to setup and what they have to do to get a program out. They all use a lot of smoke and mirrors on pre defined environments that have years of tweaks and you get a false sense of speed and stability. You do the training and start asking questions and pretty soon you start asking WTF have I done .... Fusion 360 is by far the fastest system I have found to CAD to CAM 3+2 . I am hopefully that some day I will get there with Esprit and no longer use Fusion but for now I still use Fusion over esprit if I am in a rush of just need 3 axis
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Any opinions on Esprit for turning and 5 axis milling these days. How pricey is it?
- Thread starter implmex
- Start date
- Replies 42
- Views 5,166
If you want to see what they can offer don't give them anything till they are on site and then give them the file and watch how long it takes them to setup and what they have to do to get a program out. They all use a lot of smoke and mirrors on pre defined environments that have years of tweaks and you get a false sense of speed and stability. You do the training and start asking questions and pretty soon you start asking WTF have I done .... Fusion 360 is by far the fastest system I have found to CAD to CAM 3+2 . I am hopefully that some day I will get there with Esprit and no longer use Fusion but for now I still use Fusion over esprit if I am in a rush of just need 3 axis
Marcus,
Check out SolidCam as well, possibly the best volume material removal tool pathing (imachining)and outstanding support. Its worth the time to consider at half the price of Hexagon's product. Hex quoted me $42k for millturn, 5x, 2 posts and training about a year ago. The big selling point wasn't the product, it was the post - 100% working out of the box.
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implmex
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2002
- Location
- Vancouver BC Canada
Hi BOB-00:
Do I understand correctly that SolidCam works inside Solidworks or Inventor and needs to have either one resident on the box to be able to work?
I went to the SolidCam website and it refers to running "seamlessly" inside those CAD systems but does not explicitly say that you can only run SolidCam if you already have the other software.
If so, that is sadly, a non-starter...this customer uses Onshape for all their CAD for reasons they deem important.
They are stubbornly resistant to change, and their guys are becoming adequately nimble with Onshape, so change would mean pain.
I am discouraged from sending files to their engineers as native SWorks files...many of their guys were raised with SWorks, and they are trying to enforce discipline so no one rebels and reverts.
So the workflow is to bring in the CAD models to the CAM software as STEP files... inefficient, and inflexible as that is.
I'm not greatly concerned...they will be lumbered with their own self-imposed limitations just as I am with mine.
But I do appreciate the recommendation...so thank you for that.
Just for interest's sake I've booked a demo with them online.
Cheers
Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com
Do I understand correctly that SolidCam works inside Solidworks or Inventor and needs to have either one resident on the box to be able to work?
I went to the SolidCam website and it refers to running "seamlessly" inside those CAD systems but does not explicitly say that you can only run SolidCam if you already have the other software.
If so, that is sadly, a non-starter...this customer uses Onshape for all their CAD for reasons they deem important.
They are stubbornly resistant to change, and their guys are becoming adequately nimble with Onshape, so change would mean pain.
I am discouraged from sending files to their engineers as native SWorks files...many of their guys were raised with SWorks, and they are trying to enforce discipline so no one rebels and reverts.
So the workflow is to bring in the CAD models to the CAM software as STEP files... inefficient, and inflexible as that is.
I'm not greatly concerned...they will be lumbered with their own self-imposed limitations just as I am with mine.
But I do appreciate the recommendation...so thank you for that.
Just for interest's sake I've booked a demo with them online.
Cheers
Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com
plastikdreams
Diamond
- Joined
- May 31, 2011
- Location
- upstate nj
Marcus, sometimes it's better and less time consuming to get the software the designers/programmers are used to. Doing brief research on onshape it seems to be a small potatoes software. If you are going to make them learn something, learn something this is viable.
Nx/ug is used by most aerospace companies because that's what the large companies use. The customers drive the software. I work for a large company, we have Autocad, solidworks, mastercam, and nx. Nx is used for all design work that is shared with our large customers, think ge, Pratt, and rolls...because that's the software they want us to use or they won't accept it. If they are looking to get into these types of parts they might want to get ahead of the game. Yes most systems will save as parasolid files but...it doesn't matter lol.
Just something to look at. I have been programing/designing in mastercam since 2011, I now have access to nx, and I will be learning that. Not because I have to but because I want to. I'm the type if there's a chance to learn something take it. That's why I have a book full of certs for the fire department. I'm out from shoulder surgery there's a 5 week course for fire instructor 2, you bet I'm signed up for it
implmex
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2002
- Location
- Vancouver BC Canada
Hi plastikdreams:
These are startup guys, but they are not your typical startup guys... they have money.
They have grown hugely in the 3 years I have known them and worked with them.
They are particularly good at selling the dream and seem to have been brilliantly successful in every funding round they've embarked on.
So when I first met them they were 5 guys...now there are almost fifty bodies running around in a brand new 20,000 square foot facility plus their old place, plus all those bodies working from home etc etc.
The Chief Technology Officer is an Onshape fan and chose it to be his software several years ago.
I'd never heard of it.
They can design in it like I can design in Solidworks... I'm guessing it's pretty similar in capability, but I've never actually used it...I just import models into Solidworks and program them in HSMWorks or import them into Mastercam.
So the prospect of convincing them to dump Onshape and go with something else just for me, is probably a non-starter.
I'm unsure I'd even get a respectful interview if I broached the subject.
So they can enjoy the strengths and shortcomings of their choice...my goal is to find a workable way forward to set up their tiny (so far) R&D shop and give them the bones of an approach they can grow with.
I don't actually care that their software be the best in class for the most sophisticated 5 axis and Mill Turn projects you could possibly dream up...that's not what they're making anyway and I don't see that changing.
So I need a standalone CAM package that can bring in Parasolid or STEP files and process them for a Haas DT-1 with a TRT 100 and a Haas CL-1 with one radial live tool station.
When they actually set up the production shop they're musing about, and buy their first Citizens and their first Willemins, I don't want them to be totally stuck and have to start over learning yet another software before they can even make anything.
My choice may not be the very best for those machines, but so far they haven't even got them yet, so it's all kinda academic anyway.
My task is to make a good choice for now...it doesn't need to be a perfect choice, but it does need to be a good enough choice that the investors can experience the shop running and feel good about their gamble when they see the evidence of industry and the toys whizzing around in that mesmerizing way so beloved of the lay person.
Cheers
Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com
These are startup guys, but they are not your typical startup guys... they have money.
They have grown hugely in the 3 years I have known them and worked with them.
They are particularly good at selling the dream and seem to have been brilliantly successful in every funding round they've embarked on.
So when I first met them they were 5 guys...now there are almost fifty bodies running around in a brand new 20,000 square foot facility plus their old place, plus all those bodies working from home etc etc.
The Chief Technology Officer is an Onshape fan and chose it to be his software several years ago.
I'd never heard of it.
They can design in it like I can design in Solidworks... I'm guessing it's pretty similar in capability, but I've never actually used it...I just import models into Solidworks and program them in HSMWorks or import them into Mastercam.
So the prospect of convincing them to dump Onshape and go with something else just for me, is probably a non-starter.
I'm unsure I'd even get a respectful interview if I broached the subject.
So they can enjoy the strengths and shortcomings of their choice...my goal is to find a workable way forward to set up their tiny (so far) R&D shop and give them the bones of an approach they can grow with.
I don't actually care that their software be the best in class for the most sophisticated 5 axis and Mill Turn projects you could possibly dream up...that's not what they're making anyway and I don't see that changing.
So I need a standalone CAM package that can bring in Parasolid or STEP files and process them for a Haas DT-1 with a TRT 100 and a Haas CL-1 with one radial live tool station.
When they actually set up the production shop they're musing about, and buy their first Citizens and their first Willemins, I don't want them to be totally stuck and have to start over learning yet another software before they can even make anything.
My choice may not be the very best for those machines, but so far they haven't even got them yet, so it's all kinda academic anyway.
My task is to make a good choice for now...it doesn't need to be a perfect choice, but it does need to be a good enough choice that the investors can experience the shop running and feel good about their gamble when they see the evidence of industry and the toys whizzing around in that mesmerizing way so beloved of the lay person.
Cheers
Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com
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plastikdreams
Diamond
- Joined
- May 31, 2011
- Location
- upstate nj
Hello Implmex!
Yes I've been following the saga since you broke the news about a year ago. I'm not saying to dump it but to expand their horizons. Train one guy first, get him going then, if they want, he can train another and so on. But I digress, you know them best lol.
For dedicated, stand alone CAM software with no CAD, another options is SprutCAM. It's not terribly popular, but I actually liked it when I demoed it while I was shopping; but I was probably also far more price constrained than your clients. It was nice because it automatically detected changes to imported files and did a decent job of updating the toolpaths accordingly, which makes working with a separate CAD system a bit more seamless. I'm not sure if that's a common feature in high end CAM, as I didn't bother demoing those since they were beyond my means.
It is unfortunate when the players don't understand how their earlier choices lock them out of options later, particularly when they have little experience manufacturing parts. I've never used Onshape either and perhaps it is the best choice for design but it certainly makes your job more difficult. Your doing the right thing, investigate from their perspective, demos, best available recommendation, their lucky to have you helping them. Looking forward to seeing your recommendation...
Areo Defense
Aluminum
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2022
Who knows, perhaps you'll do the Firefighter Challenge at some pointMarcus, sometimes it's better and less time consuming to get the software the designers/programmers are used to. Doing brief research on onshape it seems to be a small potatoes software. If you are going to make them learn something, learn something this is viable.
Nx/ug is used by most aerospace companies because that's what the large companies use. The customers drive the software. I work for a large company, we have Autocad, solidworks, mastercam, and nx. Nx is used for all design work that is shared with our large customers, think ge, Pratt, and rolls...because that's the software they want us to use or they won't accept it. If they are looking to get into these types of parts they might want to get ahead of the game. Yes most systems will save as parasolid files but...it doesn't matter lol.
Just something to look at. I have been programing/designing in mastercam since 2011, I now have access to nx, and I will be learning that. Not because I have to but because I want to. I'm the type if there's a chance to learn something take it. That's why I have a book full of certs for the fire department. I'm out from shoulder surgery there's a 5 week course for fire instructor 2, you bet I'm signed up for it
Hi Marcus:
I'm a happy TopSolid user here. Whether or not your/their workflow takes advantage of the integration of CAD & CAM, it's still a valuable tool in the arsenal. Most of what we do is job shop work from customer-supplied data, and TS plays nicely with this. The compare & replace function does a pretty good job of dealing with changes to external data.
I'll send you a PM with contact info if you want to pick (what's left of) my brain-LOL.
I bet YoDoug would have useful input on this, too (and he's using more of TS's functionality that we are here).
Cheers!
I'm a happy TopSolid user here. Whether or not your/their workflow takes advantage of the integration of CAD & CAM, it's still a valuable tool in the arsenal. Most of what we do is job shop work from customer-supplied data, and TS plays nicely with this. The compare & replace function does a pretty good job of dealing with changes to external data.
I'll send you a PM with contact info if you want to pick (what's left of) my brain-LOL.
I bet YoDoug would have useful input on this, too (and he's using more of TS's functionality that we are here).
Cheers!
rootsandstones
Aluminum
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2019
- Location
- Switzerland
Around here in Switzerland a lot of companys changed to TopSolid too in the last years because Mastercam and Millturn wasn't really working and most of them wanted one software that could program all their machines. I heard there is quite a learning curve but they're happy now with TopSolid!
I will agree, TopSolid can be a bit of a learning curve. My personal experience was difficult. I started using TopSolid as an AE for a machine tool dist. I was given the software and invited to come to training but I couldn't get it approved/scheduled for a while. In the meantime I tried to learn the software on my own which turned into a struggle. Once I went for the week of training it was relatively easy to pick up. With TopSolid being full CAD, CAM, and PLM it is very complex. Especially when it comes to understanding what mode you are in versus what you are trying to do and how that relates to history/feature tree.
FWIW, I worked for a decade as an AE for a machine tool dist. Every CAM software under the sun wanted to give us free software and training. Over that decade I had access to Mastercam, Esprit, Partmaker, Gibbs, EdgeCam, etc. Prior to working at the Dist I used NX from V1 to V7. I really liked NX but they were the only company that didn't give free licenses for AE's so it kind of fell off my list of software I was comfortable with. When I left the dist and went to work for an OEM aftermarket auto parts MFG and we had to select software to buy, the only two I considered based on my experience, were Esprit and TopSolid. We also knew we would need additional CAD abilities so TopSolid won.
To be fair, we probably ought to mention that learning a CAD/CAM/PDM program like TopSolid implies gaining proficiency with elements besides *just* CAM. And while I think you could just focus on the CAM side of things at first, by doing so you miss out on many of the things that make using (integrated) programs like this worthwhile. I learned TS7 almost entirely on my own after using the V6 program for 10+ years, and while it wasn't too hard, there were a few things that required some effort. The V6 program and the V7 program are *entirely* different-V7 was a complete re-write from the ground up as far as I can tell.
I'm pretty sure that folks who are familiar with 3D parametric solid/surface assembly modelers (SWX, Creo, NX, etc) would pick up TS fairly easily. Yes, there are certainly differences, but I don't consider them to be insurmountable unless you're the sort that wants it to look just like whatever you've used for the last 10 years (same hotkeys + shortcuts, menu customizations, etc). If you're coming from a 2D CAD background or haven't yet dipped your toes in the parametric pond there are a few fundamental concepts you'll need to learn. (I'm guessing most folks here have crossed that hurdle some time back...?).
The built-in PDM might confuse folks initially, but it's probably about as seamless as you could make it IMHO. (I *do* wish that the tutorials that install with the s/w, 1 for CAD and 1 for CAM, went into a little more detail about what the PDM does "under the hood", but some of their other training material covers this in great detail). I'd go so far as to say that you could almost ignore the PDM initially (certainly if you were using the program "standalone" and not using PDM Server in a workgroup setting) but again, it's worth the effort once you're a bit more familiar with the program. I had no previous experience with PDM systems (and would have told you I had no use for such, but it has been a *huge* help), so this was new to me. Trust me when I say you need this-you just don't know it yet!
The CAM side of things strikes me as pretty straightforward, but I do have to remember the things I found confusing initially coming from using V6. I suspect if I came in cold it might have been easier. The stock model management is really excellent and makes the vast majority of 2.5D work easy because a lot of the work is sorta "done for you" because the system is looking at both the part & the stock. I find little use for working with sketches/wireframe as the system does a good job with the topology of the model and in process stock. There's very little horsing around required to just cut what you need and stay away from the things you don't want to hit! The graphics are excellent, and the kinematic awareness gets you about as close as you can get to working with your actual machines (provided you've got them defined correctly-GIGO still applies of course).
I *do* wish that it came with more of a tooling library "out of the box" (the US office recently came out with a large inch tooling library that addresses this)-they needed to do better in this regard, IMHO-glad they finally stepped up. Building tools ranges from quick and easy, to somewhat more cumbersome depending on your needs. Learning the modeler is a prerequisite for proper use of this tool, but there are some "wizards" that do a good job of automating the more tedious aspects of this.
TS has got a post editing kit, but they do charge for it (and they *seem* to not want users mucking around with this)-a sticking point for some. My licenses have (had) this, but once they were put to bed I didn't keep fiddling with this. My dealer is much better at this than I'll ever be, anyway.
Wow, I didn't mean to write "War and Peace" but here it is-sorry folks. TL;DR-if I were to go shopping for something to replace this s/w, I doubt I'd be looking at anything besides an integrated CAD/CAM program all from the same vendor...hmm, what's that leave? NX? Any others? (Honest question).
It's too bad there aren't more TS folks here in the US-it's not like I can just run an ad and find folks that already know the program (I realize that this is a definite deal-breaker for some/many folks).
And whoa-Happy Easter everyone!
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I learned NX at V1 and used it to V7. I learned TS at V7. I don't think it is an apples to apples comparison because it was almost a 15 year span of time between learning the two. NX has come a long way and now looks way more user friendly than V1 was to learn.
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gkoenig
Titanium
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2013
- Location
- Portland, OR
I would at least look at NX.
At the top level (NX, CATIA, Hypermill, Esprit, etc) nobody is making totally shit software. I'm on NX along with a few customers, I have a few customers on Esprit, a whole slew on Fusion, and a handful across everything else.
For my needs, NX wins because of the CAD side, which is absolutely incredible and has ruined me on using anything else. I had to fire up my old SolidWorks 2019 seat the other day for something and it felt like stepping into a goddamn cartoon. When I was more CAM heavy, I used Fusion a bunch - but I've always hated the CAD side of it with a burning passion. Most of the folks I know who have experience with NX on the CAD side in the modern era would agree that going back to anything else is painful and limiting.
If the CAD side doesn't matter? The critical question I would ask of any vendor is Post Processor support, especially for more advanced machine functions. Integrated probing in CAM (that is *fully sorted* on the post side) is a bare minimum. Canned cycles supported? G68.2/DWO/TCPC support is fully functional? TSC options and such done? A lot of vendors will tell you "Sure, we support Brand X machines with posts!" when what they really mean is 12 years ago, they spit out a minimally functional post for a very old version of that machine they think they can hand you a copy of and walk away. For me, I would make a post part of the buying process with a *written* contract that it will demonstrate support all the core machine functions before you get invoiced, and I would make post tuning/minor updates a part of the contract because you are going to use the thing for 6 months and figure out that you really wish the post was tweaked here and there.
Esprit does this pretty well. NX is getting better at it (and your VAR has a rolodex of freelance NX post gurus who can sort it). By sheer volume, MasterCAM can do this, but is extremely VAR dependent.
At the top level (NX, CATIA, Hypermill, Esprit, etc) nobody is making totally shit software. I'm on NX along with a few customers, I have a few customers on Esprit, a whole slew on Fusion, and a handful across everything else.
For my needs, NX wins because of the CAD side, which is absolutely incredible and has ruined me on using anything else. I had to fire up my old SolidWorks 2019 seat the other day for something and it felt like stepping into a goddamn cartoon. When I was more CAM heavy, I used Fusion a bunch - but I've always hated the CAD side of it with a burning passion. Most of the folks I know who have experience with NX on the CAD side in the modern era would agree that going back to anything else is painful and limiting.
If the CAD side doesn't matter? The critical question I would ask of any vendor is Post Processor support, especially for more advanced machine functions. Integrated probing in CAM (that is *fully sorted* on the post side) is a bare minimum. Canned cycles supported? G68.2/DWO/TCPC support is fully functional? TSC options and such done? A lot of vendors will tell you "Sure, we support Brand X machines with posts!" when what they really mean is 12 years ago, they spit out a minimally functional post for a very old version of that machine they think they can hand you a copy of and walk away. For me, I would make a post part of the buying process with a *written* contract that it will demonstrate support all the core machine functions before you get invoiced, and I would make post tuning/minor updates a part of the contract because you are going to use the thing for 6 months and figure out that you really wish the post was tweaked here and there.
Esprit does this pretty well. NX is getting better at it (and your VAR has a rolodex of freelance NX post gurus who can sort it). By sheer volume, MasterCAM can do this, but is extremely VAR dependent.
John von insel
Plastic
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2015
Milling yes, lathe no..
Really? What's wrong with NX lathe?
EmGo
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
If you're a perfectionist ? I personally hate all of them for turning.
As a matter of I am, its why I prefer CAM, even better if its NX CAM.
