Help identifying an old dividing head

[neanderthal mach]

The part your asking about is normally referred to as a combined center and drive for a part rotated between the dividing heads foot stock, (same as a lathes tail stock, but called that different name) Since I don't know for sure what your dividing head uses for it's spindle taper, I can't say for sure the taper on your part does in fact fit the spindle taper. Make sure to clean the rust and dirt off that parts taper as well as the dividing heads internal spindle and try it for fit. There's a further part you'd need called a drive dog. It clamps onto the part and the leg of your drive dog fits into one of the slots in that part. This drive plate picture only has one slot but how it works is exactly the same.

 

[L Vanice]

The name is "Samson" which is a fairly popular trade name in English-speaking countries. The Bible connects the name with the attribute "strong," so a good name for tools. Is it popular in other European countries?

The low placement of the initial quotation mark may be a clue to the country of origin. I know Spanish places question marks differently from English, for instance.

Is the name on the chuck or on the dividing head? The chuck would have come from a different maker.

Dividing heads often have Brown & Sharpe tapers. Your dog driver center looks like it could be No. 10 B&S.

Morse Taper, Jacobs Taper & Brown and Sharpe Taper Dimensions

Find diagrams of Morse Taper, Jacobs Taper, and Brown and Sharpe Taper dimensions here today. These tapers are found in a wide variety of different tooling.

www.victornet.com

Larry

 

[Peter S]

Edit: not sure why I didn't see Larry's post...

Lucuferus,

I think the name on the chuck is probably ,,SAMSON".



A brief search finds there was a German company of this name.

Samson Shaping Machine

Samson Shaping Machine<br>Germany - 1914 - pictures and description

www.lathes.co.uk

Vintage Machinery suggests there might be some connection between "Sampson" in the USA and the German Samson, possibly via A. Klingelhofer, Inc who shared the same US address.

Sampson Tool Co. - History | VintageMachinery.org

There is an advert for Sampson chucks: http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/imagedetail.aspx?id=23005

However, the chuck manufacturer may have nothing to do with the Dividing head manufacturer. But the DH may at least be German or some other European make.

 

[awander]

You've got to give measurements of 2 diameters, and the distance between those diameters.
The overall length to the point of the center is not useful.

 

[Lucuferus]

The part your asking about is normally referred to as a combined center and drive for a part rotated between the dividing heads foot stock, (same as a lathes tail stock, but called that different name) Since I don't know for sure what your dividing head uses for it's spindle taper, I can't say for sure the taper on your part does in fact fit the spindle taper. Make sure to clean the rust and dirt off that parts taper as well as the dividing heads internal spindle and try it for fit. There's a further part you'd need called a drive dog. It clamps onto the part and the leg of your drive dog fits into one of the slots in that part. This drive plate picture only has one slot but how it works is exactly the same. View attachment 408997

Good morning,

I just realized that I worded my question very badly.

In fact I am trying to identify the type of taper it is to try to find the manufacturer of this divider.

But thank you for the information I will add it to my file.

For the taper it fits perfectly into my divider and it's the one that came with the machine.

I have the tailstock that goes with it.

 

[Lucuferus]

The name is "Samson" which is a fairly popular trade name in English-speaking countries. The Bible connects the name with the attribute "strong," so a good name for tools. Is it popular in other European countries?

The low placement of the initial quotation mark may be a clue to the country of origin. I know Spanish places question marks differently from English, for instance.

Is the name on the chuck or on the dividing head? The chuck would have come from a different maker.

Dividing heads often have Brown & Sharpe tapers. Your dog driver center looks like it could be No. 10 B&S.

Morse Taper, Jacobs Taper & Brown and Sharpe Taper Dimensions

Find diagrams of Morse Taper, Jacobs Taper, and Brown and Sharpe Taper dimensions here today. These tapers are found in a wide variety of different tooling.

www.victornet.com

Larry

View attachment 409002

Good morning,

Thank you for your reply

It seems that Samson is also a German brand, but I haven't found much information or visuals on it yet.

The name is on the chuck. No idea if it's the same manufacturer as the dividing.

I have a lot of trouble finding my way around the different types of cones, especially since I'm not used to working and reading the dimensions in inches.

 

[Lucuferus]

Edit: not sure why I didn't see Larry's post...

Lucuferus,

I think the name on the chuck is probably ,,SAMSON".

View attachment 409031

A brief search finds there was a German company of this name.

Samson Shaping Machine

Samson Shaping Machine<br>Germany - 1914 - pictures and description

www.lathes.co.uk

Vintage Machinery suggests there might be some connection between "Sampson" in the USA and the German Samson, possibly via A. Klingelhofer, Inc who shared the same US address.

Sampson Tool Co. - History | VintageMachinery.org

There is an advert for Sampson chucks: http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/imagedetail.aspx?id=23005

However, the chuck manufacturer may have nothing to do with the Dividing head manufacturer. But the DH may at least be German or some other European make.

Good morning,

Thank you for your reply

I don't know if it's related to my IP location but I haven't yet found much information or visuals on the Samson brand.

The name is on the chuck. No idea if it's the same manufacturer as the dividing.

On the other hand, if it's German, it's odd that it's in inch and not metric?

 

[john.k]

Not really,most German industry was inch until the mid 30s ......the exception was the car industry which had early French influence........Pull a Mauser rifle or pistol apart ,and youll find inch threads.

 

[Lucuferus]

Not really,most German industry was inch until the mid 30s ......the exception was the car industry which had early French influence........Pull a Mauser rifle or pistol apart ,and youll find inch threads.

Good morning,

Thank you for your reply

It's super interesting, I ignored it.

So it could be German but before until the mid 30s.

 

[john.k]

Before I relied on it for work,I would certainly pull it apart ,clean and lubricate it internally ......heads with the disengage worm feature often have damage from rough treatment....so that should be checked .

 

[Lucuferus]

Before I relied on it for work,I would certainly pull it apart ,clean and lubricate it internally ......heads with the disengage worm feature often have damage from rough treatment....so that should be checked .

I don't think I need to take it apart.
Everything works perfectly.

A very small point where it's a little harder when I turn the endless screw which drives the chuck by hand, the one that is disengage, but nothing more.
With the crank you don't even feel it.


It is super soft to use.
All works smoothly.

The disengagement is different from other systems, but it is super flexible.

disengage, the chuck turns by hand





engage, the chuck rotates with the crank



differential training

 

[Jim Christie]

Says Pfauter on the casting .....of course Pfauter are well known for their gear cutting machinery ..........everyone knows the famous story of Percy Goodman watching the new Pfauter gear shaper in operation ,and recognizing in the pick off feed mechanism the principle of a constant displacement foot change for the new four speed gearboxes .........he immediately patented the foot change mechanism that every motorcycle has had ever since.

Given that this dividing head had been with a milling machine with a Phauter name on it and and that they were better known for their gear hobbers I wondered given the unusual design of the dividing head if it might also have been capable of gear hobbing as well .
I didn't know if such an attachment existed so I tried a Google image search for gear hobbing attachment for milling machine .

gear hobbing attachment for milling machine - Google Search

I found a couple of examples although just like some dividing heads where Brown and Sharpe heads are on the left hand end of the table and Cincinnati and others are are set on the right hand end of the table

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/hobber%20attachment.jpg

Has anyone ever used these?

Has anyone ever used these?

www.madmodder.net

http://www.lathes.co.uk/riva/img11.jpg

Page Title

Rigiva (Riva) Italian milling machines Riva V.0, V.4, S.G.A. & S.G.M. Riva U.6/O.6 Riva U.8/O.8 Riva V.6 Riva U.20/O.20 Riva V.20 O.20-BA Riva U.30/O.30

www.lathes.co.uk

While not identical to the dividing head in this thread there are many similarities
In the earlier post on the Usnigaes site Lucuferus mentions that there were some other unknown pieces that came in the box with his dividing head .
Just a guess on my part but perhaps some of these could be the parts needed to complete this attachment for gear hobing .
There may be some missing parts .
Maybe these ideas will enable someone else to find some more information.
Jim

 

[neanderthal mach]

Your spindle taper looks to be about a Morse Taper 4 to me. But a lot of these heads were roughly copied from the Brown & Sharp universal dividing heads and those used B & S own taper. Since those are quite close to the Morse Taper, I would check your dimensions using these tables of dimensions. https://littlemachineshop.com/reference/tapers.php There's also a much less common but still a possibility of it being a metric taper. There close to, but not an exact match to the more common Morse Taper.

To those with less experience, machine and accessory tool tapers don't seem that important. There anything but, and I can't stress enough just how important they really are. Fine tapers like the B & S, Morse etc hold by very close metal to metal contact with each other. That hold is created by both friction and wedging of the male and female parts. There also a good way of providing exact and repeatable concentricity between those parts. That's what provides the accuracy. So those tapers need to be kept spotless and rust free. Any damage and it can be very expensive to have them repaired.

That head can't be used to do gear hobbing, to do so, the dividing heads rotation has to be timed exactly to the spindle rotation that drives the cutting tool. I guess it could be done through complex gearing between the milling machine spindle and the dividing head. But so far I've never any pictures anywhere showing that done with a universal dividing head. These heads were designed to do simple, or more complex compound indexing and helical milling.

 

[Lucuferus]

Given that this dividing head had been with a milling machine with a Phauter name on it and and that they were better known for their gear hobbers I wondered given the unusual design of the dividing head if it might also have been capable of gear hobbing as well .
I didn't know if such an attachment existed so I tried a Google image search for gear hobbing attachment for milling machine .

gear hobbing attachment for milling machine - Google Search

I found a couple of examples although just like some dividing heads where Brown and Sharpe heads are on the left hand end of the table and Cincinnati and others are are set on the right hand end of the table

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/hobber%20attachment.jpg

Has anyone ever used these?

Has anyone ever used these?

www.madmodder.net

http://www.lathes.co.uk/riva/img11.jpg

Page Title

Rigiva (Riva) Italian milling machines Riva V.0, V.4, S.G.A. & S.G.M. Riva U.6/O.6 Riva U.8/O.8 Riva V.6 Riva U.20/O.20 Riva V.20 O.20-BA Riva U.30/O.30

www.lathes.co.uk

While not identical to the dividing head in this thread there are many similarities
In the earlier post on the Usnigaes site Lucuferus mentions that there were some other unknown pieces that came in the box with his dividing head .
Just a guess on my part but perhaps some of these could be the parts needed to complete this attachment for gear hobing .
There may be some missing parts .
Maybe these ideas will enable someone else to find some more information.
Jim

Good evening,

yes it has the differential drive and the drive for helical gear cutting, and I think it is complete.

Here are the parts that go with the divider.
4 index plate

15-16-17-18-19-20
21-23-27-29-31-33
34-36-38-40-42-46
37-39-41-43-47-49





17 gear

20-24-24-25-28-32-36-40-44-48-56-64-72-80-86-96-100

I think you can either mount it like this with the gears
Either with the double branch (it is not in the right position)


Either with the simple branch, but which is in two parts.

 

[Lucuferus]

In indirect division with the trays, you must block the index plate and do the number of turns and its fraction.


When you want to use the differential you have to unlock this part


What will free the index plate



allow this cam to turn


and to drive the index plate with the gears to make the differential and the helical.


This is what I understood that we must do, but I have not yet tested for the helical part.

I'm not really sure how to arrange the gear.

 

[Lucuferus]

Your spindle taper looks to be about a Morse Taper 4 to me. But a lot of these heads were roughly copied from the Brown & Sharp universal dividing heads and those used B & S own taper. Since those are quite close to the Morse Taper, I would check your dimensions using these tables of dimensions. https://littlemachineshop.com/reference/tapers.php There's also a much less common but still a possibility of it being a metric taper. There close to, but not an exact match to the more common Morse Taper.

To those with less experience, machine and accessory tool tapers don't seem that important. There anything but, and I can't stress enough just how important they really are. Fine tapers like the B & S, Morse etc hold by very close metal to metal contact with each other. That hold is created by both friction and wedging of the male and female parts. There also a good way of providing exact and repeatable concentricity between those parts. That's what provides the accuracy. So those tapers need to be kept spotless and rust free. Any damage and it can be very expensive to have them repaired.

That head can't be used to do gear hobbing, to do so, the dividing heads rotation has to be timed exactly to the spindle rotation that drives the cutting tool. I guess it could be done through complex gearing between the milling machine spindle and the dividing head. But so far I've never any pictures anywhere showing that done with a universal dividing head. These heads were designed to do simple, or more complex compound indexing and helical milling.

Good morning,

Thank you for your intervention, it is very interesting.

I can't really determine if it's a Morse cone 4 or a B&S #10. They are really very close in measurements.
I took measurements in mm and inches.







I also took the measurements for the chuck attachment. If you have an idea ?

 

[awander]

Take a look at message #24, and send us the needed measurement(s), then we can tell you what taper it is.

 

[Lucuferus]

Take a look at message #24, and send us the needed measurement(s), then we can tell you what taper it is.

Oh I'm really sorry I didn't see your message.
I'll take the measurements tomorrow.

 

[Lucuferus]

You've got to give measurements of 2 diameters, and the distance between those diameters.
The overall length to the point of the center is not useful.

Good morning,

I took the measures as requested.
I hope I understood correctly.

 

[awander]

Well, that will work if we do some geometry.

Usually, the diameters and length given would be the small end of the taper, and the large end of the taper. You know, the way they specify tapers in all the tables?

The only thing wrong with your first set of measurements is that you gave the overall length of the piece, instead of the length between 2 of the diameters you had measured.