How to pace prospecting to match shop capacity?

[Rcgiovannani]

Hi Guys,

Background:

I have owned my own shop since 2018 and worked there nights and weekends up until about the end of October 2022. I am now full time. I have a business partner who is an engineer turned salesman. He and I met while working for an aerospace company years ago. He does know some stuff, certainly more than most salesman. He can even do a little programming / setup. Also good as an operator in a pinch.

I am the machinist. I have a degree in mechanical engineering, but I never liked sitting at my desk all the time so I ended up on this side of the industry about 12 or 13 years ago. I'm not really good at sales, but I'm noticing a trend that I'm not a fan of and I wanted to reach out to some people who have more experience running their own shop (I wish I had a local mentor).

The Issue:

The trend I'm noticing is that we get a lot of work - we struggle to hit our deliveries (mostly on "one-offs") and then there is a slow down while we look for more work. Sometimes we have to take the jobs nobody else wants just because we need money.

My partner feels like we need to finish what we're working on so that we keep our customers happy. I want him to look for work always and quote jobs we want but can't get to with longer leads times. The lead times will always be different based on capacity. I feel like if we are constantly quoting and looking for work we will be able to better pick and choose what we work on. He says that if he quotes longer lead times we might never hear from a customer again.

I know this is just us learning but I wanted to know if anyone else out there is willing to share what their strategies are for this sort of thing. I know it's probably tough to balance even when you have a good system.

 

[alek95]

Can you get faster at pushing jobs out more quickly? What improvements could you do to your workflow?

 

[Hebrewhammer8]

One word. Automation. Run production parts at night and do one-offs/side2's during the day. You should be able to get 2-3x the capacity properly implemented. This is the only way for small shop to actually thrive these days IMHO.

Nothing is better for your lead time and bottom line than walking into printed $$$ overnight. The next problem you will run into is it eats the work so quick now all the overhead tasks(programming/etc) become the bottleneck.

Maybe charge more money for one-offs. I know everytime I make 1 or 2 of something the feeling I have when the job is done is always "I should have charged more money for this!"

Hope this helps!

 

[Karl_T]

My son has been in business a few years with the same issue. His solution, diversify. He bought a semi tractor and three trailers. If he's swamped in the shop - the truck sits. If its average, he takes the gravy trucking jobs. For example yesterday he moved two loads of I beams 80 miles each for $900. Got home by 1:00 PM and ran the machines till 7:00.

If the shop is dead (never happens so far) he can be a full time trucker to pay the bills.

Certainly other ways to diversify.

 

[Rcgiovannani]

Can you get faster at pushing jobs out more quickly? What improvements could you do to your workflow?

I am already working a lot of hours. I think I could drastically improve things if I wasn't always "making the parts" to ship. I should probably come up with standard practices and setup sheets so that I can better hand them off to people (I have a few part time guys).

One word. Automation. Run production parts at night and do one-offs/side2's during the day. You should be able to get 2-3x the capacity properly implemented. This is the only way for small shop to actually thrive these days IMHO.

Nothing is better for your lead time and bottom line than walking into printed $$$ overnight. The next problem you will run into is it eats the work so quick now all the overhead tasks(programming/etc) become the bottleneck.

Maybe charge more money for one-offs. I know everytime I make 1 or 2 of something the feeling I have when the job is done is always "I should have charged more money for this!"

Hope this helps!

I should probably be charging more for one-offs. I get that same feeling especially when I send a quote and get a PO back like less than a day later lol.

The programming is already the bottleneck. Sometimes setup is easy if it's a vice job that works with my standard tooling - but those are rare for one offs.

I don't think I can afford robot level of automation at the moment (I looked into it at the end of last year) - but I should invest more time in making high density pallets for overnight runs. I am currently running a 4 hour and 20 minute cycle part in my Brother. Unfortunately, that's for one part. It's a copper part that is like 98% 3D surfacing. I had planned on making a "4-up" tombstone for it, but the calculations for the toolpaths take like 3 days even when programming just one part - so I haven't had time to go from one part to four. I have a pretty good computer and before I had my own shop I was a mold maker.

 

[CarbideBob]

The trend I'm noticing is that we get a lot of work - we struggle to hit our deliveries (mostly on "one-offs") and then there is a slow down while we look for more work. Sometimes we have to take the jobs nobody else wants just because we need money.

Look really hard at the hows and whys of this statement.

 

[Rcgiovannani]

Look really hard at the hows and whys of this statement.

I am, but I'm not getting it. I might need a little more help here.

We take on too much work. We struggle to hit our deliveries because we took too much work. Once we finish the work, we end up being slow while we look for more. Rinse and repeat.

I'm trying to figure how to balance it.

 

[SD&M]

I am, but I'm not getting it. I might need a little more help here.

We take on too much work. We struggle to hit our deliveries because we took too much work. Once we finish the work, we end up being slow while we look for more. Rinse and repeat.

I'm trying to figure how to balance it.

I'm curious to hear if you guys have much (any) network of other shops/vendors you work with, and if you might be able to leverage this resource when you find yourselves over capacity for whatever reason.

It was never our intention to sub out *any* work when we started the business, but over time we've just kinda developed a network of people we work with, and it has been a net positive for us, as well as for them! In many cases we've both become each other's customer *and* vendor depending on our needs at the moment. And after a while, we've become friends with some of these folks, too. We will sometimes split up a large job to try to compress a delivery, some of us do things that the others don't (grinding, screw machine work, EDM, etc), sometimes we just need more capacity when it seems like everything you've quoted lands at once! Occasionally someone will be a little light on work and we can send something over to fill in a lull....I think we're all better for knowing each other-it's cool.

Just a thought if you haven't considered this already-sometimes necessity is the mother of invention.

 

[Rcgiovannani]

I'm curious to hear if you guys have much (any) network of other shops/vendors you work with, and if you might be able to leverage this resource when you find yourselves over capacity for whatever reason.

It was never our intention to sub out *any* work when we started the business, but over time we've just kinda developed a network of people we work with, and it has been a net positive for us, as well as for them! In many cases we've both become each other's customer *and* vendor depending on our needs at the moment. And after a while, we've become friends with some of these folks, too. We will sometimes split up a large job to try to compress a delivery, some of us do things that the others don't (grinding, screw machine work, EDM, etc), sometimes we just need more capacity when it seems like everything you've quoted lands at once! Occasionally someone will be a little light on work and we can send something over to fill in a lull....I think we're all better for knowing each other-it's cool.

Just a thought if you haven't considered this already-sometimes necessity is the mother of invention.

We have developed some relationships and I have subbed out some work in the past. I think we need more. We actually have a machine shop in the same buildings as us and he's about the same size. We've swapped a few jobs with him too.

I think you have point here, though. Maybe my partner should be quoting work and also developing those types of relationships you mentioned.

 

[Ox]

I am already working a lot of hours. I think I could drastically improve things if I wasn't always "making the parts" to ship. I should probably come up with standard practices and setup sheets so that I can better hand them off to people (I have a few part time guys).



I should probably be charging more for one-offs. I get that same feeling especially when I send a quote and get a PO back like less than a day later lol.

The programming is already the bottleneck. Sometimes setup is easy if it's a vice job that works with my standard tooling - but those are rare for one offs.

I don't think I can afford robot level of automation at the moment (I looked into it at the end of last year) - but I should invest more time in making high density pallets for overnight runs. I am currently running a 4 hour and 20 minute cycle part in my Brother. Unfortunately, that's for one part. It's a copper part that is like 98% 3D surfacing. I had planned on making a "4-up" tombstone for it, but the calculations for the toolpaths take like 3 days even when programming just one part - so I haven't had time to go from one part to four. I have a pretty good computer and before I had my own shop I was a mold maker.

Does the Brother control not read "M98" ???


------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[alek95]

I am already working a lot of hours. I think I could drastically improve things if I wasn't always "making the parts" to ship. I should probably come up with standard practices and setup sheets so that I can better hand them off to people (I have a few part time guys).



I should probably be charging more for one-offs. I get that same feeling especially when I send a quote and get a PO back like less than a day later lol.

The programming is already the bottleneck. Sometimes setup is easy if it's a vice job that works with my standard tooling - but those are rare for one offs.

I don't think I can afford robot level of automation at the moment (I looked into it at the end of last year) - but I should invest more time in making high density pallets for overnight runs. I am currently running a 4 hour and 20 minute cycle part in my Brother. Unfortunately, that's for one part. It's a copper part that is like 98% 3D surfacing. I had planned on making a "4-up" tombstone for it, but the calculations for the toolpaths take like 3 days even when programming just one part - so I haven't had time to go from one part to four. I have a pretty good computer and before I had my own shop I was a mold maker.

If programming is your bottle neck, what could you do to alleviate that? Is there a different CAM that could speed up your workflow?

You say that you are already working a lot of hours. Ideally, you want to increase your efficiency. Anybody can just brute force the number of hours they work, but it makes more sense long term to increase how much work you can do on a per-hour basis.

 

[ManualEd]

Don't get stuck in the "I'm not making money on this 100 pc job, but surely if I get an order for 1000pc I'll make a profit:.

If you lose money on 100, you'll lose 10x more on 1000pc.

Sounds like you're too cheap for the work you're quoting.
Quote higher on the work you're doing til you make money or it gives you time to quote more profitable work with better lead times.

 

[mhajicek]

I had planned on making a "4-up" tombstone for it, but the calculations for the toolpaths take like 3 days even when programming just one part - so I haven't had time to go from one part to four.

Subroutine and work offsets; no need to add any more CPU time.

 

[Rcgiovannani]

Does the Brother control not read "M98" ???


------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I'm offended. lol. The sarcasm in machining is crazy.

If programming is your bottle neck, what could you do to alleviate that? Is there a different CAM that could speed up your workflow?

You say that you are already working a lot of hours. Ideally, you want to increase your efficiency. Anybody can just brute force the number of hours they work, but it makes more sense long term to increase how much work you can do on a per-hour basis.

I'm using MasterCAM 2022 and I've been using MasterCAM since X5 so I'm not sure switching that up would save me time but it is a good suggestion. If I added multi-axis I would save a lot of time.

Don't get stuck in the "I'm not making money on this 100 pc job, but surely if I get an order for 1000pc I'll make a profit:.

If you lose money on 100, you'll lose 10x more on 1000pc.

Sounds like you're too cheap for the work you're quoting.
Quote higher on the work you're doing til you make money or it gives you time to quote more profitable work with better lead times.

I probably am too cheap for the work I quote. I always think I'm less capable than I am.

Subroutine and work offsets; no need to add any more CPU time.

I'm not sure why I didn't think of this...but I am running it on a rotary indexer and am programming off the center of rotation of that rotary indexer. The part would need to be rotated 90 degrees and then moved further out from the center of rotation X4.

I guess that would just need me to figure out where the new location is by setting it up in CAD... Sometimes I get so focused on one thing, man. This part has a lot of "funny" angles I need to position it in so that I don't need crazy long tools.

 

[mhajicek]

I'm not sure why I didn't think of this...but I am running it on a rotary indexer and am programming off the center of rotation of that rotary indexer. The part would need to be rotated 90 degrees and then moved further out from the center of rotation X4.

I guess that would just need me to figure out where the new location is by setting it up in CAD... Sometimes I get so focused on one thing, man. This part has a lot of "funny" angles I need to position it in so that I don't need crazy long tools.

Here's what I run for my four-up indexer fixture:
% O59999 (MAIN 4 UP) G52 A0. M98 P50002 G52 A90. M98 P50002 G52 A180. M98 P50002 G52 A270. M98 P50002 M30 %

 

[Houdini]

What machines do you have? Do you have other employees? How many? part time full time? Do you have funds for more machines?

 

[Hebrewhammer8]

I am already working a lot of hours. I think I could drastically improve things if I wasn't always "making the parts" to ship. I should probably come up with standard practices and setup sheets so that I can better hand them off to people (I have a few part time guys).

Sounds like you need a full-time guy now. Even if they take 2x as long to do things as you would you are now freed up to do more "high-value" work in the shop. I was in the same spot a year ago and I hired a young guy on a whim when I got busy. It has payed off. After almost a year in the shop he is now a very competent setup guy and pumps parts out. It was hard at first because you need to take the time to PROPERLY train them but sooo worth it now. I would not have been able to invest and implement our automation setup without his help doing the day to day things.

As a business owner I am the captain of the ship. I set the destination and give the general direction we are going. The crew implements my vision with their own unique touches added. The captain is not cleaning the bilge, the captain is not doing the day to day things, the captain is focused on the big picture and how to get there without running the ship aground or lighting it on fire. Without the crew the captain wouldn't have the time/energy to focus on keeping the ship headed the right direction. I would say its time to start fostering a good crew.

Every business is a people business.

 

[Machinist_max]

My son has been in business a few years with the same issue. His solution, diversify. He bought a semi tractor and three trailers. If he's swamped in the shop - the truck sits. If its average, he takes the gravy trucking jobs. For example yesterday he moved two loads of I beams 80 miles each for $900. Got home by 1:00 PM and ran the machines till 7:00.

If the shop is dead (never happens so far) he can be a full time trucker to pay the bills.

Certainly other ways to diversify.

This is exactly what I do. I do some trucking and bulldozing. Lowboy equipment moving in the morning a few days a week, and when the shop gets stressful do some bulldozing.
I work weekends as well so having some variety is great from the mind.
I went nuts there for a while when I was only out of the shop 3 days a year.

 

[jccaclimber]

Non owner here, but observing what I’ve seen some of our small shop suppliers do. Numbers are just examples, but aren’t far off in my world.
A lot of jobs without external ops like heat treatment or anodize can be done in 2 weeks, but at a disruption to shop schedule. Depending on the customer’s expectations you might quote them at 2 weeks with a high price, or at 6 weeks with a lower price. The shop schedule is such that most 6 week jobs are done in 4, delivered in 5. If a better paying 2 week job comes up then it gets done and the 6 week job actually takes 6 weeks. Don’t deliver the 6 week jobs under 4 or the customer grows to expect it. This might change in a long relationship. Sales sort of runs in parallel. If the shop schedule ever falls below 3 weeks the owner starts spending time doing sales and less machining. If the shop gets booked out more than 8 weeks the sales guy starts machining. It’s not a hard stop on sales though. Say at 8 weeks of work the sales guy switches to 25% machining, 50% at 9 weeks, etc. remember, there’s still some slack built into the schedule so a job with a shorter lead time can always be fit in, and customers expecting X lead time can get it.
Part of the key to this is having customers with varied lead time expectations, or predictable (product) work.

 

[Sam I]

It could be that you need to decide on the type of work you are needing and shut out as much of everything else as possible. I know it's easier said then done but in the 5 years I've been running my own shop just about every time I've taken on a POS job to keep me and the machines busy I end up having to turn away something more profitable when it comes along. You can't go out and ask customers for more work when your spindles are busy working for below shop rate.

I'm not going to lie - I still take on less than ideal work. It's hard when you're the one in charge and have to pay the bills when things are quiet. A larger local shop has recently closed down and I'm trying to mop up some of their clients and am taking on a lot more work I'm not best suited for than I'd like at the moment to get my foot in the door. My hope is once they start to know my capabilities I can be a little more choosy with the work I take on from them.

Also, when I'm comfortable with my work load I'll usually quote a little higher than I would otherwise. I maybe miss out on a few good jobs but it means I'm not working at 100% all the time which can get exhausting pretty fast.