New Building - New Demand Meter

[olf20]

We are in the process of finishing our new building and had the electric co come
out to ok the service entrance and hook us up. Everything went ok but they put in
a demand meter. We just run small fans, lighting and a once in a while we weld something.
Just wondering how the rate is calculated and what effect it might have on our bill. We seldom got over $90 / month and most months it is $75.
Thanks for any help!!
olf20 / Bob

 

[Ox]

I am guessing that most any new meter has demand capability these days. ???

I know that my "meter Maid" aint been here in many yrs, and yet they know exactly my usage, and they can tell me my monthly demand as well.

They were talking about offering Internet service over the same highwires, but haven't heard much about that in a cpl yrs now....

???

You aint sucking enough to make the meter even move - don't worry too much.


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

 

[Jraef]

Did you go from a single phase to a 3 phase service? A Demand Meter is usually the unexpected surprise when doing so.

What that means is, they will set a maximum amount of demand that you can pull from the grid, usually in kW but sometimes in kVA, kWh, kVAH, kVAR, or even kVARH. This represents an amount of power (or an effect on power) that they have predetermined you are expected to use at any given time, called a "demand window", usually 15 or 20 minutes. If you exceed it, even once, during a billing cycle, the amount by which you exceed it usually results in a multiplication factor of your consumption (kWh) billing for that month. Then once you have done that, they may just ASSume that you MIGHT exceed it again if they don't bother to read your meter and bill like that you again next month too. Only after you have stayed UNDER the demand for 12 consecutive months will they stop "estimating". I have seen more than one extreme examples of where someone exceeded their peak demand so much that it resulted in almost tripling their bill.

So it's really important now for you to know exactly WHAT the demand level is that they are assigning to you, what the demand window is, and how that affects your bill. No two utilities are exactly alike, but they are required to tell you all of this, unless you don't bother to ask!

 

[sfriedberg]

Bob, the only sensible answer anyone can give you is "ask your utility for a detailed explanation of their rates and how your bill is affected by demand".

There are over 3,000 electric utilities in the US and EVERY SINGLE ONE IS DIFFERENT on how they charge.

I have two services on my property: house and shop. Portland General Electric applies two totally different fee schedules to the two services.

 

[willbird]

Did you go from a single phase to a 3 phase service? A Demand Meter is usually the unexpected surprise when doing so.

What that means is, they will set a maximum amount of demand that you can pull from the grid, usually in kW but sometimes in kVA, kWh, kVAH, kVAR, or even kVARH. This represents an amount of power (or an effect on power) that they have predetermined you are expected to use at any given time, called a "demand window", usually 15 or 20 minutes. If you exceed it, even once, during a billing cycle, the amount by which you exceed it usually results in a multiplication factor of your consumption (kWh) billing for that month. Then once you have done that, they may just ASSume that you MIGHT exceed it again if they don't bother to read your meter and bill like that you again next month too. Only after you have stayed UNDER the demand for 12 consecutive months will they stop "estimating". I have seen more than one extreme examples of where someone exceeded their peak demand so much that it resulted in almost tripling their bill.

So it's really important now for you to know exactly WHAT the demand level is that they are assigning to you, what the demand window is, and how that affects your bill. No two utilities are exactly alike, but they are required to tell you all of this, unless you don't bother to ask!

Too bad nobody makes a "loaner" device that sees to it that you USE what they are billing you for on demand meter usage. IE if they stick you with a higher bill, bring in a huge spotlight running 24/7/365 using what you are paying for in a very flamboyant fashion :-).

There is a co over in Defiance, OH named Advantage Powder Coating, owned by Sammy Hornish's ma and dad, some of what they do involves resistance heating and a LOT of it, he was running a diesel genny in a trailer for part of the operation, Toledo Edison is the power co over there, and they practically GIVE power to GM, and give the shaft to everybody else :-).

One thing municipal power has done out here is offer business (both big and small) some alternatives to the BIG outfits like Edison. There was a media blasting company that used to be in West Unity, OH (Stripmasters) and they moved to Montpelier,OH years ago (now defunct I think) and he said his electric bill went to 1/3 of the Edison cost.

 

[Heavey Metal]

Nothing the power company does is going to reduce your bill.

One thing that a demand meter does is give a record of what has happened at your meter so when the line fuse gets triped they know who to scold

So when one of your prized employees deadheads two 500 amp lincolns against each other and than comes and tells you that there might be something wrong with one of them and than the lights go out along with everyone elses they know who to blame.

 

[moonlight machine]

90 bucks a month!!!!!! Quit whining!! I am at 700.00 + every month......90.00 I wish.....I'll trade bills with you anytime.

 

[Ox]

90 bucks a month!!!!!! Quit whining!! I am at 700.00 + every month......90.00 I wish.....I'll trade bills with you anytime.

x 2.5 for me...


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

 

[advt001]

Yep I'm with Ox my power bill is close to 3k a month.Years ago the small town I live in developed an industrial park. What they did was pave a road and put up a sign. No water, sewer or 3 phase elec. Stupid ass me bought some property and assumed the city would assist with the utilities. Didnt happen I had to sign a contract with the elec. co to get 3 phase run out to my shop. I was required to purchase a minimum 50k worth of electricty in 60 months. Then they setup the demand period between mid july and mid august. These days should I turn on the shop 3 phase a/c it will increase my powerbill 12k a year.I cant get any questions answered by Southern Company. Hell, they will not even return a phone call. Its got something to do with who you know or who you blow.

 

[olf20]

Not whining just curious. We moved just two blocks and put up a new building.
Single phase at both locations. I will get in touch with our electric co and see
what they tell me. I have already asked and the "lady" did not know much about
it.
Thanks for the replies
olf20 / Bob

 

[SND]

Single phase is usually somewhat regulated as to how much they can charge or increase the price for each year to the ordinary citizen. For 3ph businesses and demand charges its a complete mess and prices can go way up into dollars per kwh instead of pennies per kwh for regular household 1ph. When I was reading about one utility company here trying to get more 3ph info, it sounded like when set for 3ph with a demand, say in the 50kwh bracket, you had to pay for the whole 50kwh as a base whatever portion of it you used, and then if you went above that you got the crazy price per kwh, and there was the thing about only having to bust it once and you were screwed for the year. We got paper mills and other large companies here that can't reopen in part because power rates are too much, millions a year in electricity, screw that.

I wonder what they pay for power in China.

 

[Shawn Ghormley]

Talk to an engineer when you call the power company. When I called about adding three phase to my shop an engineer came out looked at the pole, transformer distance to the building etc.

 

[Modelman]

I see you are in Illinois. If you have trouble getting answers out of the power company, call the agency that regulates it, the Illinois Commerce Commission:

ICC: Electricity

These are the people who set the rates, and terms for new connections, etc. It has been my experience that if you call with an issue that prompts a call from the ICC to the utility company, the utility will become REAL attentive to your needs. They will, however, dig in their heels at the exact letter of the regulations.

Dennis

 

[jim rozen]

A few salient points:

1) as already mentioned by a number of responders, the only sure and certain information about your situation
will be obtained from your utility company. Any theory or guess presented here is just that - a theory or a good guess.

2) around our neck of the woods residences do not get peak demand meters.

3) around our neck of the woods, residences do not get billed for reactive power.

4) around here, residences cannot get three phase power

5) around here, three phase power to businesses invariably come with a peak demand meter, and
get charged for VARS (reactive power)

6) around here, business with single phase power frequently do get peak demand meters.

So, is the service in your building registered to a business or to a private residence?

 

[Toms Wheels]

A demand meter is a way to screw business's and stay within the rules of the BOPU. The first 1000KWh get you the business rate say its $0.10 KWH, the next 1000 is volume rate of $0.08KWH, so because you used 80% of your power between the hours of 8am-8pm, they take 80% of your usage and charge $1.20 per KWH as a DEMAND Charge, so you pay say $300 for the power you use and $1200 in demand charges. They now are doing this on my residence as well, but it is only on usage above 1.000 KWH a month, so it only hits in big A/C months.

The demand charge factor is HUGE, here in NJ. At $1.20 KWH you could almost generate your own power at that price.

 

[jim rozen]

Demand charges for utilities are a simple translation of a physics fact: utility infrastructure has to be sized to meet *peak*
load. Not average load. So they design their rate schedule to encourage customers to "build" their loads in such a way
as to make them as uniform as possible over time.

Likewise VAR (reactive power) charges. They need to size their transmission lines to account for reactive currents so
they try to convince folks to present as large a power factor as possible.

Put it another way, utilities are giving residential customers (well, SOME of them anyway, I've never heard of demand
metering at residences, other than dual-rates for water heaters) a break from the practices they impose on every
other customer.

 

[Jraef]

...
Put it another way, utilities are giving residential customers (well, SOME of them anyway, I've never heard of demand
metering at residences, other than dual-rates for water heaters) a break from the practices they impose on every
other customer.

Or to put your other way another way; It's there, you just don't see it.

Residential customer rates are more closely regulated, but ALREADY have a factor built into them commensurate with what they know is the average swing of power demand for a typical residence. It's amoritized out across a very large number of users, some of whom will NEVER have a large swing, others of which will. It's just that it isn't worth it to them to install, read and maintain demand meters on that large base of residential users and get very little additional gain (or loss as the case may be). So they negotiate a value in the rate they get with the PUC.

But another more recent change coming to your town soon (if it hasn't already) is what is called TOU or "Time Of Use" metering for residential customers. We just got it here in the SF Bay Area. I will now pay upwards of 3X my "normal" rate for power in the middle of the day if I exceed some arbitrary level they assign. I'll have to read it again, it just took effect July 1 and when I read the info, I got sick and had to put it down, but IIRC, between the hours of 7AM and 6PM I can end up getting charged upward of $0.36 per kWh now. How is this accomplished? "Smart" meters baby! You didn't think they were putting those in to really benefit US did you?

 

[advt001]

I was considering down sizing and moving back home last year. I ran into a lineman I know and was told that all
outbuildings here in Al. using more than 100 kwh per billing cycle will be put on demand. Doesnt matter if its a
business or not.