Why do they want thousands for a heat shrink tool machine?

[Comatose]

I don't think you can make a judgement on someone's electrical/electronics skill level without personally knowing him. And yours would be better than his? Really? What's going on with you guys? Regressing back to grade school now? I don't think it's too far a stretch to think a guy could make one of these and be safe enough using it in his personal shop if he had the skill and knowledge to be able to make it. Would I want lowest common denominator employees using one? Quite likely not.

Whether a torch will remove a small steel tool from a shrink holder is probably very greatly dependent on the torch in question. If it's a ring oxy/acetylene torch, I bet it sure would. It's just a matter of getting that heat in fast enough to create a temperature differential from the outside of the material to the inside so that it pulls the bore open before much heat transfers to the tool shank. Probably a pretty narrow time window before conduction screws that up, too.

In this case? Yes.

I've spent the past twenty years designing and manufacturing power control circuitry specifically for heating. I have some patents on the same. I've made about three million heater controllers. I am on one of the standards technical panels at UL.

He might be great at rigging some stuff up. If I made one, mine would be better. I don't need to know him to say that.

In this case, and this case only, this is one of those "my expertise is actually better than your ignorance" situations.

He asked why these things were expensive. I gave him the business case for why. I never said he couldn't bodge something together. I hope he does, I love bodged together stuff.

I also know the difference between a proof of concept/in house tool and a tool sold commercially.

 

[eKretz]

In this case? Yes.

I've spent the past twenty years designing and manufacturing power control circuitry specifically for heating. I have some patents on the same. I've made about three million heater controllers. I am on one of the standards technical panels at UL.

He might be great at rigging some stuff up. If I made one, mine would be better. I don't need to know him to say that.

In this case, and this case only, this is one of those "my expertise is actually better than your ignorance" situations.

He asked why these things were expensive. I gave him the business case for why. I never said he couldn't bodge something together. I hope he does, I love bodged together stuff.

I also know the difference between a proof of concept/in house tool and a tool sold commercially.

Yet you assume that he doesn't. Your qualifications sound great. They don't mean that someone else couldn't also know enough on the subject to do a fine job as well. The original thread subject was some guys basically not understanding why these devices were priced so high, and talking about making a device for themselves, not for sale to the general public or to be sold commercially... The difference and reason for the high price could just as easily have been explained without the posturing.

 

[Comatose]

Yet you assume that he doesn't. Your qualifications sound great. They don't mean that someone else couldn't also know enough on the subject to do a fine job as well. The original thread subject was some guys basically not understanding why these devices were priced so high, and talking about making a device for themselves, not for sale to the general public or to be sold commercially... The difference and reason for the high price could just as easily have been explained without the posturing.

Which I did, and then some time later he went on a posting rampage telling everyone who was trying to contribute to the thread how stupid we all are and what a big tough self-reliant Alaskan he is.

But when the question is "why do these things cost to much to buy" he's asking a business question. Not a "could I cobble one together out of scrap" question.

I could make an RV out of six junkyard vans from the 1980s and fifty pounds of MIG wire. But if I made a thread on some RV forum saying "why do RVs cost $350,000 when I can make one out of all the trucks I have parked in the yard, they're just a box with some wheels" people would be rightfully dismissive of the premise, even if I actually went and did so.

 

[triumph406]

I think I'll stick with side-lock holders.

 

[snowshooze]

It makes a huge difference what size tool you are shrinking. When you are doing small tools the aggressiveness of the heating makes all the difference in actually getting an old tool out. You will certainly get a 3mm or 1/8" tool into a holder with a torch but you aren't going to get it back out.

To the contrary.
I get 'em, but only for the last 5 to 7 years.
Smaller are in fact far more difficult.
You just have to lose to know how to win sometimes.

 

[snowshooze]

I think I'll stick with side-lock holders.

Always an option.
But, I am doing some fairly close tolerance work.
And on a lark, I bought some shrink holders.
It kind'a depends on what you do, but to me, the difference was mind-blowing.
The finishes, I mean the fine finishes....really showed obvious improvement.
Which is very difficult to quantify.
But, I am a manufacturer of patented products of my own design, sold the world over.
Really... nickel-dime stuff.
But, they are MY products.
And I have been ripped off by everyone and their dog.
The Patent is worthless when they come in from other nations.
One outfit has four of my products showcased in the first 3 pages of it's catalog.
They are outta Czechoslovakia and outsource the production to Germany.
The only thing I can do is to make my own product better than they do.
Shrink tooling improved my finishes beyond theirs.

 

[gregormarwick]

Yet you assume that he doesn't. Your qualifications sound great. They don't mean that someone else couldn't also know enough on the subject to do a fine job as well. The original thread subject was some guys basically not understanding why these devices were priced so high, and talking about making a device for themselves, not for sale to the general public or to be sold commercially... The difference and reason for the high price could just as easily have been explained without the posturing.

I am extremely careful not to get into credential dick waving contests online nowadays. Nobody ever comes out of that looking good, even when you "win".

As far as "not understanding why these devices were priced so high" that's not the case at all. The reason these devices are priced so high is very simple - it's because they can. A shop full of cnc operators requires a safe method of using these tools and these machines provide that, so one of these machines is a mandatory prerequisite for most shops who want to use shrink holders.

My argument from the start has been that these devices are overpriced for the technology they employ and the components they are built out of. That is a fact and don't see how anyone can dispute it unless they simply don't understand how they work.

My secondary argument is that, properly employed, a torch seems to me to be far gentler and better for the useful lifespan, accuracy and reliability of the holder, and so far nobody ITT has made a pertient and sensible case to the contrary. ??? stated that he uses a machine and none of his holders are discoloured - that may be the case and I have no way to honestly dispute the claim, except that it runs contrary to what I have seen everywhere else.

Most of the responders ITT seem to read all that and conclude that I and others like me are too tight/poor to buy the machine and don't address the actual argument.

 

[kb0thn]

I have a proper machine and all of my holders are discolored. But even discolored, they make smoother parts than most of my non shrink fit holders.

Should I be on pins and needles that my shrink fit holder is going to explode? Will it explode in the machine or is it going to take out a wall of the shop?

 

[eKretz]

Which I did, and then some time later he went on a posting rampage telling everyone who was trying to contribute to the thread how stupid we all are and what a big tough self-reliant Alaskan he is.

But when the question is "why do these things cost to much to buy" he's asking a business question. Not a "could I cobble one together out of scrap" question.

I could make an RV out of six junkyard vans from the 1980s and fifty pounds of MIG wire. But if I made a thread on some RV forum saying "why do RVs cost $350,000 when I can make one out of all the trucks I have parked in the yard, they're just a box with some wheels" people would be rightfully dismissive of the premise, even if I actually went and did so.

That's true. Conversely, if you really knew what you were doing, you could also start with an old semi and build a badass RV that's up to an extremely high standard and featured in RV magazines with people drooling all over it. You see where I'm going with this? Without seeing the level of knowledge and effort put into a project, you just can not accurately pre-judge it. If he was showing us photos of the project and it was a cobbled together POS, I'd probably be right there with you. But he hasn't, so I'm not.

 

[Mtndew]

Wow, someone likes to toot their own horn quite a bit.
People who do that are full of shit 99% of the time.

 

[MwTech Inc]

Actually, if you want to do the shrink route..... use a rotary weld positioner. (300 bucks on *BAY)

Simple task to make a fixture to hold the cat40, or whatever type you run.
So, fire the torch, drop in the holder, apply heat, few revs, and change/install tools.
Ain't Rocket science here guys..............

 

[gregormarwick]

Actually, if you want to do the shrink route..... use a rotary weld positioner. (300 bucks on *BAY)

Simple task to make a fixture to hold the cat40, or whatever type you run.
So, fire the torch, drop in the holder, apply heat, few revs, and change/install tools.
Ain't Rocket science here guys..............

That's basically what I have, old motorised turntable with a 50 taper tool pot mounted on it.

 

[Mtndew]

Ain't Rocket science here guys

We know it's not.
But the "expensive" machines add quality of life that you can't get from a torch.
Quicker swapout, quicker cooldown, which means you get back to making chips quicker. And they heat up in like 5 seconds virtually removing the need for gloves because the end mill hasn't had a chance to get hot yet.

The "inexpensive" machines that are single phase take longer to heat up, upwards of 20-30 seconds, and offer no cooldown ability.

 

[CarbideBob]

My secondary argument is that, properly employed, a torch seems to me to be far gentler and better for the useful lifespan, accuracy and reliability of the holder, and so far nobody ITT has made a pertient and sensible case to the contrary. ???

You are kidding right?
An induction is so much nicer in heat distribution and leads to longer holder life than a torch.
There is no comparison.

 

[gregormarwick]

You are kidding right?
An induction is so much nicer in heat distribution and leads to longer holder life than a torch.
There is no comparison.

I'm not kidding, no, and I've yet to see anyone present any good reasoning why I'm wrong.

 

[Mtndew]

I'm not kidding, no, and I've yet to see anyone present any good reasoning why I'm wrong.

Well I could say that you get the best holder life by shoving it up a squirrel's ass before you heat it up but I've yet to see anyone prove me wrong.

 

[gregormarwick]

Well I could say that you get the best holder life by shoving it up a squirrel's ass before you heat it up but I've yet to see anyone prove me wrong.

Very funny, but does nothing to refute me.

If the induction machine is so obviously superior it should be trivial to prove me wrong, right?

 

[Doozer]

We have a high end induction machine at work. A Haimer
I think. It even has a refrigerated cooling cycle. Anyhow
one of the McMonkeys in production burned out the induction
coil part of the machine last week. I think he has a HSS end
mill stuck in one of the holders, and kept re-heating and
re-heating the thing until it melted down. In spite of all the
safety controls and the like, they still managed to kill it.
A new element from Haimer was over $6000.

-Doozer

 

[Doozer]

At the company where I work, using a propane torch requires a hot work permit.
Not joking.
Lots of paperwork and fire watch procedure.
Not joking.
And you need someone who is fire extinguisher certified to be present.
Not joking.

-D

 

[michiganbuck]

We had a top quality heat shrink at the big shop woth a high magnificaton scope that likely cost !0 K or better. Right off the bat tool heights that 1/32" would be fine had to be held to a few microns. With this often a tool holder would get heated 3 times and much time was wasted.