Advice for New Large Machine Selection

[Houdini]

Okay, this is going to hurt to type out but, here goes just the start of what I see wrong.

Skills: there are two types of machinists. Broadly defined, there are manual machinists and CNC machinists. Sometimes, manual machinists have the knack for computers and CAD software and whatever. Other times, they don't. We get into lots of arguments around here about who does what but, it comes down to those two categories. To really thrive with CNC technology, you need someone with CAD skills. In my opinion, the better they are with the CAD skills, the better everything else downstream is going to go.

What you need for the future is some shit-hot, whiz-bang young to mid career guys who really think through problems and know how to use modern CAM software. They won't be cheap and they shouldn't be but, that's what you need. CNC methods aren't the same as manual machining. Setups aren't the same. Techniques that are possible with CNC are completely foreign and new to someone who's never done it.

But the bottom line is: you need those skills to bridge your company into the current market, much less prepare for the future. If you get one of them sitting in front of you for an interview, they will and should run out the door like the building is on fire. There is nothing at all about what your company is offering that would make that guy want to work there for a single week.

Management: you need management of those employees who understands what the needed skills are and who they need to attract and retain. Chances are really good that the current management ain't it or things wouldn't be the way they are. Your shop really needs to be run and staffed by talented manufacturing engineers. That word is key: talented. Not any old manufacturing engineer. It has to be someone with vision for how this is all going to run.

Existing staff: you can try to cross train existing employees into learning the CAD and CAM side of things. Conversational programming isn't going to get you there, even as a transition. Conversational is handy when you're doing a very simple operation but, it's no replacement for using CAM software. It's just too different. CAM is not simple profile of a part and monkeying with ten offsets in the control to make it do incremental cutter paths to a finished profile. All of that is magic tricks from 30 years ago, pre-CAM. It can't be used as a substitute in a modern shop.

Every one of these things that management tries to avoid or step over to ease into things, will only prolong the transition by decades. I can't believe we're even having this discussion in 2024 but, here we are.

Example: you try to make due with existing machinists. They're completely computer phobic and don't have an innate knack for Fusion 360, Solidworks or some other CAD system. You're already dead and you don't know it. No, training probably won't save those employees. If they aren't going out of their mind from the stupidity of working there, they're probably perfectly happy twirling cranks and aren't good candidates for where you need to be.

I'm not saying to fire all your existing people. If they know how the plant maintenance takes place, or how other processes work, there are probably a dozen roles for them. Maybe they do the planning for maintenance processes while the new guys pick up the actual programming and machining. Maybe they're getting close to retirement anyway and you can have them mentoring. Whatever it is, you don't want a shop full of computer-phobic employees dragging down the whole operation for the next 10-15 years.

Surprised you re-type this out every month. You need a copy, then cut and paste.
Especially when the guy on the other end has no pull usually, waste of time.
Oh well.

 

[Hebrewhammer8]

Surprised you re-type this out every month. You need a copy, then cut and paste.
Especially when the guy on the other end has no pull usually, waste of time.
Oh well.

Screaming into the void can be cathartic and relaxing....

 

[Donkey Hotey]

I hope he prints it out and puts it in front of his management. "Hey, it's not me, it's these guys and this is what they say." It takes the responsibility off of him. I can be the bad guy and bearer of bad news.

 

[Houdini]

I hope he prints it out and puts it in front of his management. "Hey, it's not me, it's these guys and this is what they say." It takes the responsibility off of him. I can be the bad guy and bearer of bad news.

Actually also, we should check, most the time its a new young guy trying to make a mark and mix things up to the modern age. And the facility has no want.

@Millms
How old are you?
How long have you worked in this field?
How long have you worked at this facility?

Edit: Sorry my slightly on the spectrum, OCD, really likes to notice patterns

 

[Millms]

Okay, this is going to hurt to type out but, here goes just the start of what I see wrong.

Skills: there are two types of machinists. Broadly defined, there are manual machinists and CNC machinists. Sometimes, manual machinists have the knack for computers and CAD software and whatever. Other times, they don't. We get into lots of arguments around here about who does what but, it comes down to those two categories. To really thrive with CNC technology, you need someone with CAD skills. In my opinion, the better they are with the CAD skills, the better everything else downstream is going to go.

What you need for the future is some shit-hot, whiz-bang young to mid career guys who really think through problems and know how to use modern CAM software. They won't be cheap and they shouldn't be but, that's what you need. CNC methods aren't the same as manual machining. Setups aren't the same. Techniques that are possible with CNC are completely foreign and new to someone who's never done it.

But the bottom line is: you need those skills to bridge your company into the current market, much less prepare for the future. If you get one of them sitting in front of you for an interview, they will and should run out the door like the building is on fire. There is nothing at all about what your company is offering that would make that guy want to work there for a single week.

Management: you need management of those employees who understands what the needed skills are and who they need to attract and retain. Chances are really good that the current management ain't it or things wouldn't be the way they are. Your shop really needs to be run and staffed by talented manufacturing engineers. That word is key: talented. Not any old manufacturing engineer. It has to be someone with vision for how this is all going to run.

Existing staff: you can try to cross train existing employees into learning the CAD and CAM side of things. Conversational programming isn't going to get you there, even as a transition. Conversational is handy when you're doing a very simple operation but, it's no replacement for using CAM software. It's just too different. CAM is not simple profile of a part and monkeying with ten offsets in the control to make it do incremental cutter paths to a finished profile. All of that is magic tricks from 30 years ago, pre-CAM. It can't be used as a substitute in a modern shop.

Every one of these things that management tries to avoid or step over to ease into things, will only prolong the transition by decades. I can't believe we're even having this discussion in 2024 but, here we are.

Example: you try to make due with existing machinists. They're completely computer phobic and don't have an innate knack for Fusion 360, Solidworks or some other CAD system. You're already dead and you don't know it. No, training probably won't save those employees. If they aren't going out of their mind from the stupidity of working there, they're probably perfectly happy twirling cranks and aren't good candidates for where you need to be.

I'm not saying to fire all your existing people. If they know how the plant maintenance takes place, or how other processes work, there are probably a dozen roles for them. Maybe they do the planning for maintenance processes while the new guys pick up the actual programming and machining. Maybe they're getting close to retirement anyway and you can have them mentoring. Whatever it is, you don't want a shop full of computer-phobic employees dragging down the whole operation for the next 10-15 years.

We have a handful of guys who have been wanting to go to CNC for years, used to work in shops with them before here. Now will be rusty, but shouldn't take them too long to knock it off. Others I do not think we could ever get to the point of running other than pressing a button, can run a manual better than the rest though. Our parts are generally very simple and the designs have not changed since the 1900s, but neither has our machining techniques so jobs went to outside shops. I agree when I came into this shop I looked around and was wondering if I was in a machine shop, don't blame a single person for not coming here.

We have an old school machinist running the show, giving me pushback on any ideas, and just saying we have the best machines for the job still. Not sure if they are going to hand me the shit sandwich once he retires, but I am trying to prepare for it.

So we actually do a lot of simple operations that still take us ages, hence why I thought conversational would help. But for machining parts from stock I think CAM is the only time efficient option.

The guys are tired of working the way they do for the most part, they've had their ideas shot down again and again. I dont know why no one takes any ideas from them. Only reason they stay is pay is decent and benefits are good. Pension helps keep them too. The last of the oldest school guys are on their way out and we want new young talent in here. We just cannot adjust the pay scale individually here so it makes it tough on really good guys, they feel like they do more and paid the same which i understand and makes it hard.

We can put non machinist people on our press to disassemble things, its not machinist work tbh. Working on trying to keep out machinists off this job, but there's so much HR red tape around it for whatever reason. Seems like any idea we have hits so many speed bumps, but all I can do is keep pushing. Starting to make some progress convincing people times have changed, but its slow going.

Thanks for taking the time to type this out though appreciate it.

 

[Millms]

Actually also, we should check, most the time its a new young guy trying to make a mark and mix things up to the modern age. And the facility has no want.

@Millms
How old are you?
How long have you worked in this field?
How long have you worked at this facility?

Edit: Sorry my slightly on the spectrum, OCD, really likes to notice patterns

26, Only have been working in the field for 3 years all at this same place just in maintenance. Recently moved into the machine shop to support and track breakdowns that roll through. Consensus from all the machinists is we need to get out of the stone age and I agree. Just a big task for the amount of groundwork needed to be done, and until now no one had the time or wanted to put any effort in. Our shop isn't seen as a money maker for us, but I am not sure how since we save hundreds of thousands of dollars a year doing work in house. Management is starting to get the idea since we are getting hit with heavy machining costs on the outside. Wish they would have realized this 20 years ago.

 

[Houdini]

26, Only have been working in the field for 3 years all at this same place just in maintenance. Recently moved into the machine shop to support and track breakdowns that roll through.

Yep, like I said, as we see all the time, should have bet some money.
good luck!

 

[Donkey Hotey]

We have an old school machinist running the show, giving me pushback on any ideas, and just saying we have the best machines for the job still.

How did I know?

The guys are tired of working the way they do for the most part, they've had their ideas shot down again and again. I dont know why no one takes any ideas from them.

This is a recurring theme. You are not alone and I'm amazed your company has held on for this long.

Only reason they stay is pay is decent and benefits are good. Pension helps keep them too. The last of the oldest school guys are on their way out and we want new young talent in here. We just cannot adjust the pay scale individually here so it makes it tough on really good guys, they feel like they do more and paid the same which i understand and makes it hard.

You and your team might find this discussion relevant.

Manufacturing Job Descriptions and Estimated Salary Ranges

There have been a bunch of discussions about employees jumping ship, what is appropriate to be paid, what is an employee worth, what are they being asked to do, etc, etc. It goes back to the dawn of time but, I think one of the things that has really changed is the technology being used today...

www.practicalmachinist.com

26, Only have been working in the field for 3 years all at this same place just in maintenance. Recently moved into the machine shop to support and track breakdowns that roll through. Consensus from all the machinists is we need to get out of the stone age and I agree. Just a big task for the amount of groundwork needed to be done, and until now no one had the time or wanted to put any effort in.

You and the others are not wrong.

Our shop isn't seen as a money maker for us, but I am not sure how since we save hundreds of thousands of dollars a year doing work in house.

When your management discovers that you're out of business without your own on-site maintenance capabilities and Xometry can't deliver the parts you need, they'll change their tune.

 

[Houdini]

When I have done things like this, or have seen many others try,
the main difference when it is accepted, is that you have proof of the gain.

You need to do the research and present in writing the gain that WILL, not maybe be achieved.

without this it usually doesn't happen, or you find that you were wrong and it is a net loss actually.

 

[boosted]

just took a week long training class for siemens advanced 5 axis programming in Chiraq, and i'm a believer now that Siemens>all as far as controls go. both in ease of use and capability.

What!? You been arguing with me over this one (Siemens vs HH) for years!

Glad to see a convert.

 

[RC Mech]

Organizational culture and clueless management aside, you need to look at Awea bridge mills.

Pretty good value for money. Okuma? In those specs? Why?

 

[empower]

What!? You been arguing with me over this one (Siemens vs HH) for years!

Glad to see a convert.

i may be hard-headed, but when presented with facts, i'm capable of changing my opinion, lol.
HH is still absolutely phenomenal and is just as capable processing wise, where siemens comes ahead is in user friendliness and ability to do setups quicker, change CSYS orientations easily etc.

 

[Houdini]

i may be hard-headed, but when presented with facts, i'm capable of changing my opinion, lol.
HH is still absolutely phenomenal and is just as capable processing wise, where siemens comes ahead is in user friendliness and ability to do setups quicker, change CSYS orientations easily etc.

Things like this is why I adopted the philosophy of, I don't have a strong opinion about things I don't know a lot about.

So 5 axis, Fanuc bad/ok, HH good, Siemens good That's about the extent I've picked up. Haven't ran a 5 axis So no strong opinion here.

 

[empower]

Things like this is why I adopted the philosophy of, I don't have a strong opinion about things I don't know a lot about.

So 5 axis, Fanuc bad/ok, HH good, Siemens good That's about the extent I've picked up. Haven't ran a 5 axis So no strong opinion here.

well, i usually try to state that things like this are my opinion/experience, and as such - shouldnt be taken as gospel. again, i dont think there's a huge difference between HH and siemens, just from my experience and knowledge up till now, siemens edges it out slightly in user friendliness. both are lightyears ahead of any other control out there though.

 

[ShaunM]

When I was working we would make sure we identified the problem clearly, before we attempted to fix it.

"A problem well-defined is a problem half-solved" I read that quote on this very site and it has stuck with me.

The folks with the check book only care about the money, that's what they're paid to do. Define a quantitative problem ($ lost) and present a quantitative solution ($ saved).

You work in maintenance thus you are nothing but overhead. Non value added. Most large companies are working to eliminate period expenses and outsource them. You have to prove, with dollars, why you're worth keeping around AND investing in. It is likely not obvious to leadership why a shop that can make giant parts in house is so valuable. But then again, that's not what they're paid to know. Help educate them in terms they understand.

 

[Eleven71Cutters]

Funny thing is, even if you break it all down, Show the $ amount saved by spending the money up front, show the man hours saved, show the extra hours put in for overnight runs of parts. You could show them they will make an extra $500k a year and save $100k on labor. I still doubt they will move forward anytime soon.

Heard the saying somewhere, Penny Wise, Dollar Dumb. People will be penny pinchers today but ignore the dollar extra spent later to save that penny.

 

[Houdini]

Heard the saying somewhere, Penny Wise, Dollar Dumb. People will be penny pinchers today but ignore the dollar extra spent later to save that penny.

And jumping over dollars to save pennies.

Sometimes the little people don't know the bigger game at play.

I have some friends that own businesses, I interact with their employee's on the regular, a lot have the same complaint of, "it could be better if"

What they don't know is the $ resources that are needed to make it better, are being used in other diversified assets that yield a higher ROI than a shitty machine shop.

But the lowly employee isn't hip to any of this.

I've worked a machine shop that I was told made no profits, Its place was just their to support an injection molding shop, which is where the profits were being made.
Some things have to be considered a system though, as I iterated to the owner, because without the machine shop, the molding shop couldn't exist, because it created injection molds at cost.

A lot of variables the employee doesn't know.

 

[Comatose]

I'm sure OP is working at a steel mill or a rolling mill, almost certainly making thick sections of specialty steel in support of a shipyard.

So, there's no real incentive from the top to change, because it's as protected as protected can be. The profits, that is.

 

[Garwood]

Why is the idea to replace manual G&L boring mills with CNC bridge mills? Or am I missing something?

Why would you not replace them with CNC boring mills?

Also, if you're machining high-value, large one-off, time sensitive parts you're gonna have the guy standing there watching the cut whether it's manual or CNC.

I would LOVE to have the CNC version of my Kuraki HBM, but there's no way in hell I would walk away and do anything else that takes my attention away from the $50K part on the table. I would love to have a CNC HBM because of all the cool shit you can do with one and the toolchanger. It would save tons of time, but no way would it allow me to multitask much. I just don't see that happening.

G&L made/makes nice CNC HBM's. Boeing sold an almost brand new 5" G&L with full rotary and 31i Fanuc within the last year through Bidadoo for like $25k.

 

[Millms]

Yep, like I said, as we see all the time, should have bet some money.
good luck!

I’ll need it, everyone who finds out I’m tryna help the shop says the same lol. I’m not one to give up easily tho it annoys me how we operate as a company.

When I have done things like this, or have seen many others try,
the main difference when it is accepted, is that you have proof of the gain.

You need to do the research and present in writing the gain that WILL, not maybe be achieved.

without this it usually doesn't happen, or you find that you were wrong and it is a net loss actually.

I think it would be pretty easy for us to show a roi within a year or two with the price of some of the stuff we send out. Hell one order management was appalled by is $400k for parts we used to make before other machines broke. Now we have to order them tiny amounts at a time and I’m not sure if we will be able to get them all in by the time we need to swap out the machine they go to. Thats already like 1/3 of the price of one of the nicer machines I’ve just got a ballpark for. And again that’s just a single set of parts. Thanks for all the input tho everything you guys have said has been helpful really. Wouldn’t have heard a lot of this unless I posted.