Compact VMC Selection $60k-$70k

[Miller846]

From what I understood is that they are labeled as educational machines for two reasons. One is they aren't built in any way for speed, so tool changes etc are slow compared to their other machines. And they have the factory consent to give heavy discounts to schools. So it's a machine with limited factory options they can sell for cheap to get more people educated on Doosan machines.

That is true, it is quite a bit slower than their DNM or SVM, but man they make beautiful parts! Next one for me is hopefully the DNM

 

[Radar987]

Most will be able to be made in an 8" cube build volume.

Build volume? This isn't 3D printing.

The group I work for has had to return a brand new Makino because to high of a percentage of their parts came from China.

Sounds like a BS story to me.

Thanks for the feedback. Did you get the Mitsubishi control on your machines?

The very obvious yellow strip on the top of the control panel is signature Fanuc.

 

[PracticalMillingist]

I wouldn't ever buy a Doosan with a Mitsubishi control. It's neither a more powerful control, nor will it be implemented half as well.

We have Doosan's with Siemens, Heidenhain and Fanuc. Fanuc is their bread and butter, and man they are implemented well, the others are decently implemented, but I would only advise on them if you know the controls yourself or have a good way of getting support. Which usually means you have to be in Europe for those two controls.

 

[EmGo]

I wouldn't ever buy a Doosan with a Mitsubishi control. It's neither a more powerful control, nor will it be implemented half as well.

What the heck ? it's a 3 axis mill. It has a tool changer, whoopee. What is "implemented" so much better with fanuc, the chip conveyor ? Coolant turns on faster ? That's silly.

 

[PracticalMillingist]

What the heck ? it's a 3 axis mill. It has a tool changer, whoopee. What is "implemented" so much better with fanuc, the chip conveyor ? Coolant turns on faster ? That's silly.

Accelerations, Smoothing Parameters, Tool Changer Recovery, loads of other stuff.

 

[EmGo]

Accelerations, Smoothing Parameters, Tool Changer Recovery, loads of other stuff.

Hogwash.

 

[PracticalMillingist]

Hogwash.

Fine. Have it your way. No matter what control you buy it's going to be amazing.

 

[EmGo]

Fine. Have it your way. No matter what control you buy it's going to be amazing.

Sorry, already got all the bridges I need. We're talking simple low end 3 axis mill, I ain't buyin' no more of that crap. It's hogwash.

 

[triumph406]

Yeah, it was a mess. Not Makino's fault at all, but I believe they were able to come to an arrangement that worked for both groups.

Don't for a second believe this ever happened.

But say it did, and I was a machine tool salesman reading this thread I'd be very leery about selling a machine tool to your organization. That is if it actually exists, and isn't some 15 year old incel at home making up porkies.

That specific Makino and SIYL are mostly made in the same place apparently. Major flub on the person who selected the machine. That guy is no longer with the org, for that and other reasons.

Be careful, your next I bet posting here wouldn't be too 'popular' with your 'organization'.

Especially when they realize you have to go to the peanut gallery for help in buying a machine tool. I hope you didn't say "Ok I got this!"

 

[Wsurfer]

Brother S500, awesome. Machinable ceramics Yuuuk. Not going in my Brother machine. Did some on a different machine. Consistency of the material was a problem.

 

[rklopp]

I have a DEM 4000 and it is a solid machine. Mine has a Fanuc control. I asked about the Mits control when I was buying a year ago and basically got laughed at. I supposed if I wanted to wait 9 months for supply chain issues to unkink, and was willing to forego discounts, I might have gotten one. I saw recently on PM someone has custom ordered a DEM with 4th, probing, and TSC, and it will take 5-6 months to show up.

The Fanuc is by no means a conversational control and nowhere near as intuitive off the bat as a Haas. If you know CNC controls in general and have access to decent CAM, you should be fine using it for a prototype style environment, as I do. As with most interfaces, once you use it a few times, it becomes second nature despite the odd softkey names and menu paging. My only beef was that it came with a single loc-line coolant nozzle, but I fixed that with a Y and some more loc-line.

 

[Miller846]

I have a DEM 4000 and it is a solid machine. Mine has a Fanuc control. I asked about the Mits control when I was buying a year ago and basically got laughed at. I supposed if I wanted to wait 9 months for supply chain issues to unkink, and was willing to forego discounts, I might have gotten one. I saw recently on PM someone has custom ordered a DEM with 4th, probing, and TSC, and it will take 5-6 months to show up.

The Fanuc is by no means a conversational control and nowhere near as intuitive off the bat as a Haas. If you know CNC controls in general and have access to decent CAM, you should be fine using it for a prototype style environment, as I do. As with most interfaces, once you use it a few times, it becomes second nature despite the odd softkey names and menu paging. My only beef was that it came with a single loc-line coolant nozzle, but I fixed that with a Y and some more loc-line.

The flood coolant is my only gripe on this machine, I’m thinking about making my own coolant manifold that fits over the spindle nose. Have you upgraded the coolant pump on yours? I’m looking for a higher pressure pump to throw on. Once I do that, I’ll really have zero gripes with these machines haha.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

Don't for a second believe this ever happened.

But say it did, and I was a machine tool salesman reading this thread I'd be very leery about selling a machine tool to your organization. That is if it actually exists, and isn't some 15 year old incel at home making up porkies.

Of all the people to post this, I'm a little surprised to see you doubting this. Big company, disconnected "Global supply chain", clueless managers who make up feel-good crap like "must be made in america" and you get what they have. I had to get a vice president signed waiver to buy Haas because there wasn't a minority or women owned machine tool builder to buy from. Not joking. Add in their BS terms and conditions like accepting a return, no questions asked and I could easily see this being real.

 

[DavidScott]

What the heck ? it's a 3 axis mill. It has a tool changer, whoopee. What is "implemented" so much better with fanuc, the chip conveyor ? Coolant turns on faster ? That's silly.

You gotta be pretty tuned out not to recognize how well a control is implemented on a machine, or only run one brand of machine. My experience is with two Yasnac controlled mills with the cheaper control being better implemented. Lots of little details added up making the cheaper control run faster/smoother in many ways. But I am one of the weirdos that enjoy machining and enjoy using higher quality tools.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

I'll jump in. You mentioned ceramic-like material but, also mentioned TSC and also mentioned dust. These things don't go together. Are you wet machining or dry machining the material? If you're not specifically doing deep hole drilling or unusual pocketing, through spindle coolant is going to be more headache than it's worth.

There is a high pressure coupling up in the spindle head that both does not like being run dry all the time (needs coolant for lubrication) but, also doesn't like abrasive grit (which will damage the sealing surfaces). Even if you dry machine the material, getting that crud in the coolant will probably damage the coupling and even the spindle taper and tools from leaking coolant during tool changes, etc. If the machine is going to deal with dry materials, completely skip any idea of TSC.

Then there is the matter of the material getting onto the guides and screws of the machine. Way covers are not perfect seals. They are more like umbrellas. Things still migrate up under the covers, or behind the wipers. It gets into everything. If you mix coolant with an abrasive dry material (alternating between metals and this mystery material), you'll soon have a grinding paste that will destroy everything.

My recommendation would be to buy a dedicated dry machine. Buy it cheap and plan to scrap it every few years. Something Haas used to offer on the VF line is a pressurized way cover option. It's not on the website but, ask the sales guy if the factory can still do it. They put fans on the column and base castings to keep positive air flow under all the covers. This option was aimed at the EDM electrode market, machining carbon and copper electrodes in a dry environment.

If that's not an option, I'd still think about adding blower fans to the column and try to close out any air gaps you can to force air out from under those covers. I'd look into synthetic coolants that don't leave a sticky residue and as you already mentioned, the centrifugal separator and do your coolant pickup from that tank, not the one taking drain-back from the machine.

 

[gregormarwick]

You gotta be pretty tuned out not to recognize how well a control is implemented on a machine, or only run one brand of machine. My experience is with two Yasnac controlled mills with the cheaper control being better implemented. Lots of little details added up making the cheaper control run faster/smoother in many ways. But I am one of the weirdos that enjoy machining and enjoy using higher quality tools.

EG alternates between Chinese linear motor and ancient US hydraulic servo iron as being the pinnacle of machine tool technology, and thinks his '90's SGI box running Wildfire is superior to what the rest of us are using nowadays.

Safe to say he's pretty tuned out.

 

[Garwood]

What the heck ? it's a 3 axis mill. It has a tool changer, whoopee. What is "implemented" so much better with fanuc, the chip conveyor ? Coolant turns on faster ? That's silly.

This is a pretty huge deal with any CNC. The simplest 2 axis lathe even. It's really far from hogwash and becomes very, very apparent when you get some CNC time across various brands of machines. Lower end machines like leadwell or Doosan, atleast the older ones, often have poorly integrated controls. The best machines like Makino have mind blowingly awesome integration where the machine always surprises you how fucking smart it is.

The subject of control integration and refining some of the oopses of machine builders are regular subjects here and on other CNC forums.

It's pretty far from hogwash for many of us.

 

[Optiofab]

Ok, lot of stuff to process here. First let me address the... insinuations? I've been a machinist for 15 years. I always worked in prototype shops, which means I program, setup and run everything I do in small (1-5 parts) quantities. My experience includes Haas vf1-9 and UMC 750, DMG DMU, various Mikron 5 axis machines (heidenhain), integrex I400 dual spindle, various fadals and an old doosan. Currently running a specialized 5 axis machine to grind the materials I mentioned. All of this in marine and aerospace industries.

I don't know what my orgs policy is on employees identifying them publicly, I was told I can discuss machines, but have not been cleared to discuss more then that. I will check with them next week though and see if its ok to use their name. I don't think it will be a problem, but I'm playing it safe.

I had already identified the machines I thought would be likely candidates, but was curious what other peoples experiences/recommendations are. My experience with newer Haas (2010+) makes me not want to go down that road. Just a multitude of issues with those machines that I would rather avoid, the worst being a new at the time 2016 umc 750. The Brother and EDU 4000 seemed like good candidates though.

Appreciate the feedback on grinding ceramic materials in the VMCs. So far its not been an issue with the 1980s box way machine we are planning to replace. A robust filtration setup seems to have preserved the machine to this point. TSC while not a must, is definitely helpful, core drills are frequently used and run a lot cleaner with TSC. Dust was a poor choice of words, I should have said ceramic particulate that will accumulate in the coolant as a byproduct of the machining/grinding processes.

I was curious about the control options on the DEM 4000 because the Mits seems to be quite a bit more capable when comparing the specs. Perhaps I am under the mistaken impression that 670 block lookahead (mits) would provide much better performance in surfacing (flowline/morph/scallop) toolpaths then the 20 block lookahead on the Fanuc.

EDIT: all of the materials are cut wet with diamond tooling and a synthetic coolant..

 

[Marc 1982]

Fanuc Robodrill Model M, just don't get the one with the Mitsubishi control and you will be good.

 

[Houdini]

I'll jump in. You mentioned ceramic-like material but, also mentioned TSC and also mentioned dust. These things don't go together. Are you wet machining or dry machining the material? If you're not specifically doing deep hole drilling or unusual pocketing, through spindle coolant is going to be more headache than it's worth.

There is a high pressure coupling up in the spindle head that both does not like being run dry all the time (needs coolant for lubrication) but, also doesn't like abrasive grit (which will damage the sealing surfaces). Even if you dry machine the material, getting that crud in the coolant will probably damage the coupling and even the spindle taper and tools from leaking coolant during tool changes, etc. If the machine is going to deal with dry materials, completely skip any idea of TSC.

Then there is the matter of the material getting onto the guides and screws of the machine. Way covers are not perfect seals. They are more like umbrellas. Things still migrate up under the covers, or behind the wipers. It gets into everything. If you mix coolant with an abrasive dry material (alternating between metals and this mystery material), you'll soon have a grinding paste that will destroy everything.

My recommendation would be to buy a dedicated dry machine. Buy it cheap and plan to scrap it every few years. Something Haas used to offer on the VF line is a pressurized way cover option. It's not on the website but, ask the sales guy if the factory can still do it. They put fans on the column and base castings to keep positive air flow under all the covers. This option was aimed at the EDM electrode market, machining carbon and copper electrodes in a dry environment.

If that's not an option, I'd still think about adding blower fans to the column and try to close out any air gaps you can to force air out from under those covers. I'd look into synthetic coolants that don't leave a sticky residue and as you already mentioned, the centrifugal separator and do your coolant pickup from that tank, not the one taking drain-back from the machine.

On our proprietary ceramic machines, the dry ones had HEPA vacuum systems, and sealed cabinets. with cyclone systems that emptied into bags.
I liked the coolant systems better, they were filtered water and lemon oil, much cleaner system.
These had built in sludge sumps and fiter separators.

The dry machines were carbide tooling the wet ones diamond.
They are interchangable though.
Diamond you roughing carbide for finish.

TSC as you mention would be a no go for me, if they must have it, custom filter system.

HPC will actually be damaging to most green state ceramics, would depend on their pre-fused state of course, but the Alumina and Ziconium I machined was like chalk, HPC would erode or cut it like a water jet. IMHO

Dry ceramics on a non purpose built machine will ruin it quickly IMHO

All the ceramic machines I've seen are over $60k

So kinda like using the screw driver as a chisel.