1976 FP3, my new mill

[AlfaGTA]

Spend some time with a magnifier to look over the quill for any imperfections that might be causing issue installing the quill in the bore.....
Most likely culprit is the quill....The bore would have less chance to get damaged simply due to its construction...(bore)
Have a good look at the area of transition where the clamp ring was nested.....That is where you have been cleaning and working.....
Any suspected burrs or nicks can be addressed locally using a hard "Arkansas" stone

Would not use diamond paste on a close fitting iron assembly that is part of a sliding fit...Iron is porous and will accept the diamond at the molecular level...You will never get it out of the surface and it will promote wear for the life of the casting. This is how diamond laps are made.

You do not want to make the bore any larger..The quill was working before you took it apart....The clearance between the quill and housing is critical. Excess clearance here will affect cutting performance..and surface finish of the machine.

If you must lap the bore i would recommend "Time Saver" lapping paste. It breaks down and will not embed into the iron.....They make two versions, one for soft materials and one for hard materials...they offer a sample kit having both types of varying grits.

Be sure to "clock" the quill to the housing where it originally was. Could likely be very slight errors in the shape of the quill that have found a mating home in the housing....having those out of position will make install harder.

Be sure the clamp ring is not causing issues....if it is cocked at all it will prevent the quill from sliding into the housing..
Try with lock ring removed.

Also, remember that the quill is steel, it grows (expands) at a higher rate than the iron of the housing, handling the quill with your hands will change its size and can cause distortion it its shape and straightness. Make sure the quill has been sitting in still air as is the housing long enough to be stable. (hours)

ATF is a good assembly lube for tight tolerance parts.

Cheers Ross

 

[rklopp]

I’d be tempted to turn & polish up a precise plug gauge to check the bore for snags and, if it goes in smoothly, you know the problem likely is on the quill OD.

 

[Peter from Holland]

Does it come to a sudden hard stop or does it graduatly bind ?

 

[thanvg]

Hi to all and sincere thanks for all the thoughts on this!

Sadly I don't have much to report, I spent most part of yesterday's workshop time to bore out a piece of wood (drills, shell mills, UPA and all) much to Peter's amusement .

Replying here to some of the common (or commonly targeted questions):

I am pretty positive that the quill is ok:
1. using the front cover ring as gauge and dragging it along the quill's length, I can't see any issues. Fit is uniform all along the length, very tight but very nice as well. If you get the orientation of the hand applied force right, it moves as it should (as on my FP2 at least). Ring is not huge in length, so if the quill was lightly banana this test wouldn't show but dings, burrs etc are not there.
2. I noticed some marks on the top of the bore up front (when I say bore I exclude clamp and cover ring), along the circumference. I think that, at some point, ring installed or not, someone removed or reinstalled the quill sloppily. It's like they tried to force it at an incorrect angle and they hurt the top of the bore with the rear of the quill. Rear part of the bore seems perfect.

Spend some time with a magnifier to look over the quill for any imperfections that might be causing issue installing the quill in the bore.....
Most likely culprit is the quill....The bore would have less chance to get damaged simply due to its construction...(bore)
Have a good look at the area of transition where the clamp ring was nested.....That is where you have been cleaning and working.....
Any suspected burrs or nicks can be addressed locally using a hard "Arkansas" stone

Would not use diamond paste on a close fitting iron assembly that is part of a sliding fit...Iron is porous and will accept the diamond at the molecular level...You will never get it out of the surface and it will promote wear for the life of the casting. This is how diamond laps are made.

You do not want to make the bore any larger..The quill was working before you took it apart....The clearance between the quill and housing is critical. Excess clearance here will affect cutting performance..and surface finish of the machine.

If you must lap the bore i would recommend "Time Saver" lapping paste. It breaks down and will not embed into the iron.....They make two versions, one for soft materials and one for hard materials...they offer a sample kit having both types of varying grits.

Be sure to "clock" the quill to the housing where it originally was. Could likely be very slight errors in the shape of the quill that have found a mating home in the housing....having those out of position will make install harder.

Be sure the clamp ring is not causing issues....if it is cocked at all it will prevent the quill from sliding into the housing..
Try with lock ring removed.

Also, remember that the quill is steel, it grows (expands) at a higher rate than the iron of the housing, handling the quill with your hands will change its size and can cause distortion it its shape and straightness. Make sure the quill has been sitting in still air as is the housing long enough to be stable. (hours)

ATF is a good assembly lube for tight tolerance parts.

Cheers Ross

Hey Ross,

please consider statement above regarding quill condition.

Thanks on the TimeSaver advice, I recently found out about this product, I'll try to source it .

The quill DIDN'T work when I got the machine, it was frozen solid. They might have even replaced the quill at a point, with the obvious fit issues, you can't tell about the history of such a machine if you don't know the original and subsequent owners...

Clamp ring is totally free, we are ok there.

I'll try not to add any thermal energy to the quill next time I try.

I’d be tempted to turn & polish up a precise plug gauge to check the bore for snags and, if it goes in smoothly, you know the problem likely is on the quill OD.

Hey rklopp,

this makes sense in order to identify where the problem exactly is on the bore. However, I admit, it's not easy for me to turn something to um precision. 0.01 mm I can (sometimes) achieve.....

Does it come to a sudden hard stop or does it graduatly bind ?

Hi Peter,
I assume you're investigating whether there is a bent quill? Actually, it does neither of these, no hard stop, no gradual binding.
The quill is very hard to insert from the start of the bore (main bore in the casting) and stays like this even if you push it all the way in.

---------
I am not sure how I should proceed. Maybe the plug, even if not perfect, will give some indications on where the issue is. And I am trying Peter's push-and-rotate advice hoping I can see some telltale marks on the quill after this.

Many thanks again,
Thanos

 

[Peter from Holland]

Intresting to hear that the quill was frozen solid from the getgo
Beside removing something in the bore you can also remove something from the quill
Waterproof sandpaper goes to 2000 Or lapping compound perhaps The bore is CI so the lappingcompound can get inbedded in the CI The quill is steel One could use diamant paste even perhaps Andif you start with rotating I would use lampoil with some oil
The same as with plain bearing on a grinder No ATF Sorry Ross
Quills can be a pain I know

I also would lay the quill on top Not in the gap between 2 raiser blocks The contactline may be off because of the edgecondition
Peter

 

[JDP993]

Ross' reply had me in a bit of a panic as to whether I had done something irreversibly bad. I found the lap along with the paste I used on a shelf in my storage unit. The paste was a small amount given to me by a friend from whom I borrowed the air bore gage, hand written label which says green label, cast iron, fine grade. I am not sure if this is the same material Ross is referring to. Sorry if I sent anyone in the wrong direction. When I first looked in the cabinet in the shop the diamond paste was right there and I assumed I had use that.

 

[thanvg]

Intresting to hear that the quill was frozen solid from the getgo
Beside removing something in the bore you can also remove something from the quill
Waterproof sandpaper goes to 2000 Or lapping compound perhaps The bore is CI so the lappingcompound can get inbedded in the CI The quill is steel One could use diamant paste even perhaps Andif you start with rotating I would use lampoil with some oil
The same as with plain bearing on a grinder No ATF Sorry Ross
Quills can be a pain I know

I also would lay the quill on top Not in the gap between 2 raiser blocks The contactline may be off because of the edgecondition
Peter

Quill seems fine to me Peter (front cover ring used as gauge goes up and down super smoothly), so I'll focus on the bore when I find some workshop time.
Thanks for the advice on the blocks, you are right!

Ross' reply had me in a bit of a panic as to whether I had done something irreversibly bad. I found the lap along with the paste I used on a shelf in my storage unit. The paste was a small amount given to me by a friend from whom I borrowed the air bore gage, hand written label which says green label, cast iron, fine grade. I am not sure if this is the same material Ross is referring to. Sorry if I sent anyone in the wrong direction. When I first looked in the cabinet in the shop the diamond paste was right there and I assumed I had use that.

No problem John, no harm done.
I'll try to use this breaking down compound if I can find it.

BR,
Thanos

 

[thanvg]

Ross' reply had me in a bit of a panic as to whether I had done something irreversibly bad. I found the lap along with the paste I used on a shelf in my storage unit. The paste was a small amount given to me by a friend from whom I borrowed the air bore gage, hand written label which says green label, cast iron, fine grade. I am not sure if this is the same material Ross is referring to. Sorry if I sent anyone in the wrong direction. When I first looked in the cabinet in the shop the diamond paste was right there and I assumed I had use that.

A picture of your lap would be beneficial though!!

 

[thanvg]

Hi to all,

quick report:

I used 'push and rotate' advice by Peter, didn't help much. Makes installation much easier but, after pulling the quill back out, didn't notice any marks that would guide me as to where the problem is. So, lapping it is. Super light, taking small steps. I ordered TimeSaver compound, not much to do in that department till it arrives.

I did install the vertical head and took first cuts, no issues.

The vertical quill lock ring is a bit busted, it has taken a hit and it's a bit crooked. So, it takes more than, say 90 deg handle rotation from 'free quill' to 'locked quill'. I guess that's not normal (old FP2 needs around 30 degs for the same result).
I am not sure whether I can repair this ring or build one from scratch (would like to avoid buying for budget reasons).

Last, but not least:
I've been using TouchDRO with chinese scales on my FP2 and I really like it. Bolt circe, center finding and lots of other features along with point saving and naming makes it a necessity for me. No way I am staying for long with that sweet but ancient Heidnhain monitor that only has SET function! Not even zero, you have to 'set to 0' in order to zero an axis.

Anyhow, I want to keep the HH scales, so I am looking at Heidenhain digitizers (like EXE 101) to convert to TTL. Bruce (@ballen) has done it DIY but I have no time in designing/debugging something like this. Any advice on the matter? These HH 'adapters' can be found reasonably priced on ebay but not everyday...

BR,
Thanos

 

[thanvg]

Hi to all,

roundhead FP3 users/owners please comment on the vertical quill lock action: is it supposed to go from 'totally free' quill to 'locked' by rotating the clamp lever by around 90 deg (or less, as on my FP2) or does it require to retract and tighten some more on the kipp lever?
I would like to know how it is supposed to work so as to decide what to do with mine. It requires more than 180deg rotation to do its work.

Many thanks

Thanos

 

[Peter from Holland]

Probably bent a bid from overtightening
You can lapp it in the same go as the bore perhaps
How does it behave if you release 90dgr and then push against the kipp lever ??
If it releases then a spring would help or bellville washers
You have to alter something then Drill the entree hole bigger for a spring or washers (if possible) and a washer omn the kipp lever
Or just live with it
Peter

 

[thanvg]

Probably bent a bid from overtightening
You can lapp it in the same go as the bore perhaps
How does it behave if you release 90dgr and then push against the kipp lever ??
If it releases then a spring would help or bellville washers
You have to alter something then Drill the entree hole bigger for a spring or washers (if possible) and a washer omn the kipp lever
Or just live with it
Peter

Thanks for the reply Peter

However, I think you're referring to the horizontal quill clamp whereas I am talking about the vertical mow!

Thanks!
Thanos

 

[AlfaGTA]

The vertical clamp on my FP3 goes tight in 1/4turn of the clamp lever....
Mine is made in two main pieces, each a bit less than a half circle. Held together at one side with a screw having a shim between the two halves to]
set the static size of the clamp....Opposite is the clamp lever.
Inside the clamp halves is a solid ring (well split on one side) that bears on the quill.
Never taken any of that apart as it has always worked fine on mine....
Cheers Ross

 

[thanvg]

The vertical clamp on my FP3 goes tight in 1/4turn of the clamp lever....
...

Thanks Ross,

that's what I was looking a confirmation on. I'll have to fix it then.

It seems that it took a hit at some point (and it has, for sure, seen much better days):





So, I'd assume that, due to bends, the two clamps no longer clamp properly.
Let me see how this one can be fixed....

BR,
Thanos

 

[majohnson]

Thanos:
Think there are carry over machines, what i mean by that, don't think that there was a hard model change where all the features all changed...
For example, my FP3 at work is like yours in general make up. Has the semi rounded vertical head like yours.
Single motor machine, but has an "E" stop button on the machine (3 buttons).
Mine does not have the operators control pendant (like yours) but has covers that are cut out for clearance where the pendant would have been bolted to the rear of the main casting.....
Has the straight "Z" handwheel and slide locks (X and Z) that have interlocks and that are lifted to lock the slide.....
Cheers Ross

 

[thanvg]

Hi there @majohnson , replied by mistaked?

 

[thanvg]

Hi to all,

more than a year later and many personal adventures in between, here I am with some progress on the FP3.
Happily reporting that I finally got the horizontal quill in a working condition!

Aside for overthinking about all this, I followed uncle Franz's advice (via the regular Hanover channel ) and do a quick clean-up on both the bore and the quill with some 320/400 grit wet and dry paper. Remove possible oxidation and hidden burrs.
I used a plug for the bore and my hands for the quill:

With just a touch-up and some force I managed to get the quill in the bore. Feeling lucky I also installed the handwheel and, for the first time since I got the machine, I had the horizontal quill moving with the handwheel!
It was ok for the first part of the travel but got really tight when the back of the quill entered the back of the bore as one drove the quill further out.
So, I figured the proper way now, since I have identified a possible issue at the back of the quill, is lapping.

So:
I made this lap:

and lapped the quill focusing at the back end, using 2 and 0.5 grit diamond paste. I lapped for a couple of seconds, not more. I did get some resistance towards the end, which was what I was after exactly.

and ended up with a shinny quill:

 

[thanvg]

.......continuing from previous post.

Everything goes back in, handwheel installed and I now have a quill that can be driven all the way in:

and then all the way back out:

It's still tight, possibly a bit tighter than on my old FP2, but I'll leave it alone for now.

So, big task off the list, I still need to install the lock and front ring as well as refurbish the bearings and, of course, replace the poor thrust bearings that took the 'pressure' of all my pushing the quill in and pulling it back out!

And, following Peter's advice (a more simplified take on Ross's centering procedure), I used this 'jig' to rest and eyeball centering of the quill (using a light source at the back of the bore makes this really easy)

Thanks for all the help Peter and Ross, I used many for your suggestions. Thanks for your patience to provide advice and waiting for a year to see it implemented, life happened in the meantime...Many thanks to Bruce as well, of course.

Till next time, merry Xmas to all!

BR,
Thanos

 

[AlfaGTA]

Nice work and good photos to archive your efforts.
Glad you are making positive forward progress.
Happy holidays
Cheers Ross

 

[ballen]

Hi Thanos,

thanks for the photos, I am glad that it worked out well and is finally behind you. I like your use of hot glue to prevent lapping compound from getting inside the quill.

On my Deckel FP2, the horizontal quill is easy to move when the machine is cold, but gets quite stiff when the spindle is running at high speed for a while and warms up. No big surprise, since an 80mm diameter steel cylinder grows by about 1 micron for every 10C of temperature difference. So if there is 20 or 30C temperature difference between the warm quill and the cool casting, that's already 20 or 30 microns of growth, which is enough to use up all the clearance. I'm curious to know if you see the same.

Best wishes for the holidays and the New Year!

Cheers,
Bruce