I have owned a number of Kurt vises over the last few years, most recently I have been using a couple of 3600V vises. I found myself wanting something different for a few reasons:
* limited clamping range
* expanding clamping range by back mounting jaws makes vise too floppy
* hard to bolt down to a European mill (100 mm slot spacing, Kurt is 5 inch hole spacing)
* top jaws are not carvable/replaceable.
Kurt makes larger vises and dual station vices, as do their many imitators. There is a new company, Orange Vise, that seems to have a more innovative offering. I bought two of them. The price is about the same as the street price for Kurt. The advantages promised for me are:
*wide range of clamping, up to 10.5 inches between the moving jaws
*carvable jaws available, jaws can be carved down to about 3/4 inches high (unlike Kurt)
* made entirely in America
* easy and quick conversion between single and dual station, front or rear fixed jaw
* easy disassembly for cleaning or installation removal (heaviest component 55 lbs)
I received them by UPS in 4 packages. They were nicely packed, though the exterior box on one of the bodies was nearly destroyed, the inside box was well protected and undamaged.
The body appears to be machined from a solid block of iron rather than cast. This is Durabar according to the Orange Vise website. There are no rough sand cast surfaces, everywhere it is either machined or ground and then selectively powder coated. The screw carrier is nickel plated, the screw is sealed so that no threads are ever exposed. Also included are a 2" hardened center jaw, a 3" cast iron center jaw, 2 sets of hardened and ground removable jaws, 6 hold down step clamps, and various hardware.
Everything is very nicely finished with a couple of exceptions: the step clamps had a few sharp edges and burrs. I dressed them quickly with a file and will toss them in the tumbler next time I have ceramic media in there. The moving and fixed jaws had burrs on the threaded holes for the removable jaws. I had to stone those down to get the removable jaws to lay flat on the surface. The cast jaws themselves are ground on all surfaces except, curiously , the removable jaw face, which is machined. All Kurt products I have owned had ground surfaces there. Based on the serial numbers of the vices, I have some very early production, I assume these things will be addressed in the future.
Assembling them is very easy: the carrier which includes the screw and lockdown and clamping mechanism simply slides into the end of the body, then the top jaws drop onto them. A retaining screw locks the jaws to the carrier similar to Kurt though easier in use. The set screws provided for this protruded from the back of the jaws and ought to be shorter - the protrusion interferes with a back mounted jaw. This basic assembly can be done in less than a minute, making disassembly for cleaning or demounting easy.
To fix one of the jaws, or mount the center jaw, dowel pins are inserted in holes in the vice bed, the jaw dropped onto mating holes (and in the case of the center jaw bolted down with SHCS). This is again very quick. Removing them can be more difficult, due to the tight fit of the dowel pins. A little gentle prying and wiggling seems to do it. There are holes in the bed to allow either the back or front has to be fixed, or the center jaw to be offset to a couple of positions. Since the carrier pulls the two moving jaws together, not much stress is put on the dowel pins. The holes in the bed are lined with a pressed in hardened steel bushing, so the should remain accurate for a while.
If used in single station configuration, the minimum clamping is about 3 inches, so either blocking must be used for thin pieces, or the center jaw put in place (and the moving jaw unpinned).
The bodies are 20 inches long, just spanning the table on my DMC 63V. The vise has a ball locking feature, but this requires either sub plates, or tombstones, neither of which I use. I can bolt the body down to my 100 mm spacing using the provided 6 step clamps though, something hard to do with the Kurt 3600: the holes don't match, the rim is not machined to a uniform height making step clamps more problematic. On the Orange though, the step clamps keep me from mounting the vices bang together, which was possible with the Kurt (if you were happy with two bolts per vice). I can only get these about 1.25 inches if I am going to have clamps on the inside. Using the ball locks, you could mount them touching - but again would need sub plates or be willing to mill some big holes in your table. The bodies are ground to 3.000 inches tall, a very nice figure since you can use 1-2-3 blocks as outriggers or for various fixturing or setup work. Mine matched within about a tenth.
I have used them for a couple of short milling jobs now and I am overall pleased. The design collects less swarf than the Kurts I have had, easier to hose off. They are pretty quick to disassemble to the bare body, you can then get them clean as new. The clamping range is great - up to about 20 inches if you go jaws on the outside, and this should be practical in situations that the Kurt cannot do because of the low profile moving jaws.
A couple of differences have made themselves apparent: the socket for the crank is a 1/2" square to take a standard socket drive. If you set up with the center jaw, or the back jaw fixed, the socket moves into the vise body as you tighten it. That means you need a longer extension. I found this problematic as my mill enclosure door sill is about the same height at the table. As you back the vise off, the extension handle winds towards me until it hits the enclosure, then I have to change extensions. I resolved this by fixing the front jaw instead of the back, which fixes the socket at the front of the vise. That allows the use of a speed handle without having to change anything. Never had front fixed jaw vises, but I am beginning to like it.
Second, the way the jaws are fixed is with the dowel pins mentioned above. There is necessarily a little play in the dowels. I can move the "fixed" jaw about 0.0007 by hand when the vise is unclamped. When clamped, it does not move as it is sucked to the bed by the lock down wedge. However this creates some issues: until it is clamped, you cannot indicate the jaw for anything reliable, and if it is reclamped with some bias, it will clamp in a slightly different place. Let me clarify - if you have one vise and repeatedly clamp a piece while indicating it, it will be within about +/- 0.0002, not bad. But if you pull it towards you as you clamp, it will clamp a few tenths closer. If you push it, a few tenths further away. That is exactly what happens when you clamp something it two vises - the first clamping affects the second. The middle fixed jaw is bolted down as well as pinned, so I don't think it would be an issue using the middle jaw. I would like to see features to bolt down the front and back jaw in a similar fashion, which would eliminate the variability - I may drill and tap these myself. The new Kurt 6" has expanding collets in the middle jaw to eliminate the play. Also they offer a plate that bridges one moving jaw and the bed to fix it for single station use. The Orange has holes to do this, but currently no pre-made offering. I don't like this as well anyway as it takes longer to install and remove.
[Edit - regarding the above: I followed Sol's suggestion (and it is mentioned in the instructions) and torqued the grub screw on the jaw to 15 ft-lb. with the result that I now have repeated clamping +/- 0.00005, even when trying to bias the jaw by leaning on it. See my post below.)]
Third, there are a number of holes in the bed surface, also the large holes in the trough of the bed for the ball lock system. These latter will collect swarf and there is very little clearance from the trough to the carrier - around 0.001 to 0.006 on my vises. It is hard to hose the swarf out of there so I made Delrin plugs to fill the holes. The many holes on the vice bed are used to fix the jaws in various places. These are about 1" deep and blind, so they are going to collect coolant and swarf and would be very time consuming to clean out. The pictures on the Orange website show socket head grub screws in the holes, mine did not come with these (perhaps an oversight?), nevertheless I know that is not what you want from experience with Stevens tooling plates. The hex of the screw will pack with swarf and you will have to dig it out with a dental pick. Far better to use slotted screws which don't pack nearly as badly (as Stevens does). But I can find no source for screws of the necessary length. Also, the vertical holes are still going to fill with coolant and rust. I made Delrin plugs with o-rings and slotted heads that screw down into the holes and seal on the hardened bushing just below the surface, so far that has kept the holes clean and dry. There are two holes without the bushing, the pilot diameter is different and not as deep, used only for bolts (no dowels). If would be nice if these were finished to the same dimensions so that the same plugs could be used.
All that said, I am pretty happy with these vises so far. They are very nicely made, provide features unavailable in a Kurt or Kurt copy, are easy to clean, have a very wide clamping range, and cost no more than the alternatives. If you could make use of the ball lock feature, that would be a great addition as well.
FYI - I paid full price, don't know these people, don't owe them a penny. So this is as unbiased as anyone who just spent about Three Large on something can be.
* limited clamping range
* expanding clamping range by back mounting jaws makes vise too floppy
* hard to bolt down to a European mill (100 mm slot spacing, Kurt is 5 inch hole spacing)
* top jaws are not carvable/replaceable.
Kurt makes larger vises and dual station vices, as do their many imitators. There is a new company, Orange Vise, that seems to have a more innovative offering. I bought two of them. The price is about the same as the street price for Kurt. The advantages promised for me are:
*wide range of clamping, up to 10.5 inches between the moving jaws
*carvable jaws available, jaws can be carved down to about 3/4 inches high (unlike Kurt)
* made entirely in America
* easy and quick conversion between single and dual station, front or rear fixed jaw
* easy disassembly for cleaning or installation removal (heaviest component 55 lbs)
I received them by UPS in 4 packages. They were nicely packed, though the exterior box on one of the bodies was nearly destroyed, the inside box was well protected and undamaged.
The body appears to be machined from a solid block of iron rather than cast. This is Durabar according to the Orange Vise website. There are no rough sand cast surfaces, everywhere it is either machined or ground and then selectively powder coated. The screw carrier is nickel plated, the screw is sealed so that no threads are ever exposed. Also included are a 2" hardened center jaw, a 3" cast iron center jaw, 2 sets of hardened and ground removable jaws, 6 hold down step clamps, and various hardware.
Everything is very nicely finished with a couple of exceptions: the step clamps had a few sharp edges and burrs. I dressed them quickly with a file and will toss them in the tumbler next time I have ceramic media in there. The moving and fixed jaws had burrs on the threaded holes for the removable jaws. I had to stone those down to get the removable jaws to lay flat on the surface. The cast jaws themselves are ground on all surfaces except, curiously , the removable jaw face, which is machined. All Kurt products I have owned had ground surfaces there. Based on the serial numbers of the vices, I have some very early production, I assume these things will be addressed in the future.
Assembling them is very easy: the carrier which includes the screw and lockdown and clamping mechanism simply slides into the end of the body, then the top jaws drop onto them. A retaining screw locks the jaws to the carrier similar to Kurt though easier in use. The set screws provided for this protruded from the back of the jaws and ought to be shorter - the protrusion interferes with a back mounted jaw. This basic assembly can be done in less than a minute, making disassembly for cleaning or demounting easy.
To fix one of the jaws, or mount the center jaw, dowel pins are inserted in holes in the vice bed, the jaw dropped onto mating holes (and in the case of the center jaw bolted down with SHCS). This is again very quick. Removing them can be more difficult, due to the tight fit of the dowel pins. A little gentle prying and wiggling seems to do it. There are holes in the bed to allow either the back or front has to be fixed, or the center jaw to be offset to a couple of positions. Since the carrier pulls the two moving jaws together, not much stress is put on the dowel pins. The holes in the bed are lined with a pressed in hardened steel bushing, so the should remain accurate for a while.
If used in single station configuration, the minimum clamping is about 3 inches, so either blocking must be used for thin pieces, or the center jaw put in place (and the moving jaw unpinned).
The bodies are 20 inches long, just spanning the table on my DMC 63V. The vise has a ball locking feature, but this requires either sub plates, or tombstones, neither of which I use. I can bolt the body down to my 100 mm spacing using the provided 6 step clamps though, something hard to do with the Kurt 3600: the holes don't match, the rim is not machined to a uniform height making step clamps more problematic. On the Orange though, the step clamps keep me from mounting the vices bang together, which was possible with the Kurt (if you were happy with two bolts per vice). I can only get these about 1.25 inches if I am going to have clamps on the inside. Using the ball locks, you could mount them touching - but again would need sub plates or be willing to mill some big holes in your table. The bodies are ground to 3.000 inches tall, a very nice figure since you can use 1-2-3 blocks as outriggers or for various fixturing or setup work. Mine matched within about a tenth.
I have used them for a couple of short milling jobs now and I am overall pleased. The design collects less swarf than the Kurts I have had, easier to hose off. They are pretty quick to disassemble to the bare body, you can then get them clean as new. The clamping range is great - up to about 20 inches if you go jaws on the outside, and this should be practical in situations that the Kurt cannot do because of the low profile moving jaws.
A couple of differences have made themselves apparent: the socket for the crank is a 1/2" square to take a standard socket drive. If you set up with the center jaw, or the back jaw fixed, the socket moves into the vise body as you tighten it. That means you need a longer extension. I found this problematic as my mill enclosure door sill is about the same height at the table. As you back the vise off, the extension handle winds towards me until it hits the enclosure, then I have to change extensions. I resolved this by fixing the front jaw instead of the back, which fixes the socket at the front of the vise. That allows the use of a speed handle without having to change anything. Never had front fixed jaw vises, but I am beginning to like it.
Second, the way the jaws are fixed is with the dowel pins mentioned above. There is necessarily a little play in the dowels. I can move the "fixed" jaw about 0.0007 by hand when the vise is unclamped. When clamped, it does not move as it is sucked to the bed by the lock down wedge. However this creates some issues: until it is clamped, you cannot indicate the jaw for anything reliable, and if it is reclamped with some bias, it will clamp in a slightly different place. Let me clarify - if you have one vise and repeatedly clamp a piece while indicating it, it will be within about +/- 0.0002, not bad. But if you pull it towards you as you clamp, it will clamp a few tenths closer. If you push it, a few tenths further away. That is exactly what happens when you clamp something it two vises - the first clamping affects the second. The middle fixed jaw is bolted down as well as pinned, so I don't think it would be an issue using the middle jaw. I would like to see features to bolt down the front and back jaw in a similar fashion, which would eliminate the variability - I may drill and tap these myself. The new Kurt 6" has expanding collets in the middle jaw to eliminate the play. Also they offer a plate that bridges one moving jaw and the bed to fix it for single station use. The Orange has holes to do this, but currently no pre-made offering. I don't like this as well anyway as it takes longer to install and remove.
[Edit - regarding the above: I followed Sol's suggestion (and it is mentioned in the instructions) and torqued the grub screw on the jaw to 15 ft-lb. with the result that I now have repeated clamping +/- 0.00005, even when trying to bias the jaw by leaning on it. See my post below.)]
Third, there are a number of holes in the bed surface, also the large holes in the trough of the bed for the ball lock system. These latter will collect swarf and there is very little clearance from the trough to the carrier - around 0.001 to 0.006 on my vises. It is hard to hose the swarf out of there so I made Delrin plugs to fill the holes. The many holes on the vice bed are used to fix the jaws in various places. These are about 1" deep and blind, so they are going to collect coolant and swarf and would be very time consuming to clean out. The pictures on the Orange website show socket head grub screws in the holes, mine did not come with these (perhaps an oversight?), nevertheless I know that is not what you want from experience with Stevens tooling plates. The hex of the screw will pack with swarf and you will have to dig it out with a dental pick. Far better to use slotted screws which don't pack nearly as badly (as Stevens does). But I can find no source for screws of the necessary length. Also, the vertical holes are still going to fill with coolant and rust. I made Delrin plugs with o-rings and slotted heads that screw down into the holes and seal on the hardened bushing just below the surface, so far that has kept the holes clean and dry. There are two holes without the bushing, the pilot diameter is different and not as deep, used only for bolts (no dowels). If would be nice if these were finished to the same dimensions so that the same plugs could be used.
All that said, I am pretty happy with these vises so far. They are very nicely made, provide features unavailable in a Kurt or Kurt copy, are easy to clean, have a very wide clamping range, and cost no more than the alternatives. If you could make use of the ball lock feature, that would be a great addition as well.
FYI - I paid full price, don't know these people, don't owe them a penny. So this is as unbiased as anyone who just spent about Three Large on something can be.
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