Deckel Spindle Warmup & Temp

[jz79]

Harry,
I take off my hat and you are a wild animal!!!
I think this procedure is a treat here in the forum and i gave a lot of likes.
That the move of the DECKEL resulted in the relocation of oil is a very interesting point.
TOP and keep on going.

Cheers

Perhaps that is the reason why Mikron owners manual says that machines are delivered with no oil in Y axis and that it should be filled to level prior putting into service... I don't recall anything in the manual telling the oil should be drained before moving, but it does seem to make sense now

though there is a path for it to drain to the bottom of the machine from there (at least on Mikrons it is), horizontal spindle hydraulic drawbar cylinder failed on my machine for some reason (haven't used horizontal spindle for a year prior to this, and haven't taken it apart yet, just disconnected and plugged the supply line), and the hydraulic pump emptied the tank into that cavity which then drained to the bottom of the machine where the run off way oil is gathered

 

[Harri89]

I've tried to contact Franz by their website, but no answer.
I contacted via eBay about shipping, i had an answer. Then i messaged about grease etc. No answer yet.

How good/fast usually Franz answers to email?

It seems impossible to get the cylindrical roller bearing with P5 or even P6 precision class.

Ive asked 3 different bearing suppliers and searched from internet with no luck...

Skf only offers like this : "Normal dimensional tolerance,
P6 run-out"

 

[ballen]

How good/fast usually Franz answers to email?

They are slower than usual, trying to catch up, because of Covid regulations in Germany which meant that people had to stay home.

Here is my suggestion. Send an email with a couple of photos and your questions to [email protected] . Wait about a day, and then phone them +49 8171 78238 during the working day in Germany. When you call, be prepared to resend your email, since they might not be able to find it.

If your German is OK, ask for Franz. If not, there are at least a couple of people who speak English well: Igor and Walter. They will probably not know the answers themselves, but will find Franz, ask him, and pass the answers back to you.

Cheers,
Bruce

PS: this post and thread may be relevant: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...er-super-tel-discontinued-395883/#post3834503

 

[Harri89]

I dont speak german...
I asked via eBay, do they ship to finland and they said yes.
I cant do checkout, because ebay says they wont ship to finland...

Also no answer to my contact via their website

Franz has 2 right angular contact bearings for sale. I would buy them.

 

[ballen]

I don't speak german.

If you can speak English as well as you can write, just phone them. As I said, there are several people there whom you can speak with.

 

[Harri89]

Today i was able to purchase the spindle angular contact bearings.

I had reply to my email from singer, and Kluber Isoflex NBU-15 with 40% fill (7013)
I have still some questions which is waiting for reply.

(R)NU 210E-P5 bearing is really hard to find. No one offers one. My bearing supplier was able to find some old stock somewhere in europe.
The manufacturer of the bearing is abit mystery, the one thing what is known is, that its out of buisness.
Its now ordered and on its way. It will take a about a week.

Yesterday i disassembled the tool change cylinder for cleanup

 

[Harri89]

Spindle is back togheter and i have been doing this "break in" run for bearings and grease to settle.
After 12 to 13 hours of running, in 3-4 different sets, temperature is now at Max 38C° measured from spindle taper with infrared thermometer. Temperature was stable the whole 35minutes of running at max. 4000rpm

This is my temperature measuring setup

 

[ballen]

I'm glad that worked out well.

Here's my (FP2 horizontal) spindle break-in:
I spun it in a lathe, going through the usual start, stop, cool, increase speed drill.
(And yes, the lathe is running backwards!)
The spindle is prevented from rotating by a strap wrench. You can see the black leather strap in the middle.
Black and white gauges are thermometers, showing 43 and 45C
Red is RPM (looks like 1698).

 

[Harri89]

after 1h 20 min with 3150rpm and 4000 rpm, temperature dropped 2C, now it was 36.
Seems promising

Ballen, what is your break in procedure?
Rpm steps, times etc?

 

[ballen]

Ballen, what is your break in procedure?
Rpm steps, times etc?

I used this:
https://www.gmnbt.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/GMN_BearingBreakInProcedure_n005.pdf

 

[Harri89]

It seems that, oil has found its way to vertical head, when its been in its tilted position.

I need to regrease the vertical spindle bearings...

 

[Harri89]

Dont really know what is wrong with this bearing job.

The temps started to get high again. There were no oil mixed up with grease. I regreased the bearings, didnt help. I used less grease and tried again.
Then even more less and the temperatures were around 40C after 1.5 hour of max rpm.

Today i was running the machine for 3 hours at max 4000rpm. The temperatures were around 45C.

The biggest problem is that the Y-axis grows from this much heat. Its around 10-12C more than the Frame itself and it will get sticky. I think that in long term, it will wear out the ways prematurely.

Franz Singer told to use 40% grease fill. If the 40% means, to fill up 40% of the whole cavity between bearing races, i have quite less than that now.

Maybe faulty bearings? Too much preload?
I made the break in to the bearings with caution and time. Starting from 32rpm.

I cleaned the vertical head spindle and regreased the bearings. Temps are ~32C. Dont know what the problem is with the horizontal spindle bearings.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Did you ask Frantz what he believed was an acceptable temperature for that spindle running at top RPM...
I was told by a Deckel service tech that on the FP-NC's spindles were said to be fine if at or below 130*f when running at max (3150) rpm.
Your 45*c is well within this range.....
On my FP4NC running at 3150 causes enough heat to makes moving the horizontal impossible due to expansion of the quill, but i understand that this is pretty normal.
Never caused any issues with the "Y" slide ...Maybe your gibs are setup too tight
Have you changed anything other than the new bearings?

Cheers Ross

 

[Harri89]

Did you ask Frantz what he believed was an acceptable temperature for that spindle running at top RPM...
I was told by a Deckel service tech that on the FP-NC's spindles were said to be fine if at or below 130*f when running at max (3150) rpm.
Your 45*c is well within this range.....
On my FP4NC running at 3150 causes enough heat to makes moving the horizontal impossible due to expansion of the quill, but i understand that this is pretty normal.
Never caused any issues with the "Y" slide ...Maybe your gibs are setup too tight
Have you changed anything other than the new bearings?

Cheers Ross

I have sent Singer an email few days ago, no reply yet.

The machine doesnt complain about the temperature, and runs fine.
But i can hear it "stick" when i change direction in JOG mode.
It doesnt do that when machine is cold or under 38-40C.

I changed 2pcs of angular contact bearings, 1 roller bearing and one O-ring.

 

[AlfaGTA]

What brand and weight is the way lube you are using?
Check to be sure that all the feed checks on the "Y" axis are actually delivering oil......

Need info from Singer give him a call......
They seem to have spotty responses via e-mail.
Cheers Ross

 

[rklopp]

I have had the Y slide on my FP2NC “thump” (stick a little) in hot weather and high spindle speeds with the Y stationary for a while. I guess the lube squeezes out and the issue is probably characteristic of slideway machines to some extent. I’ve never had a motion fault from it. The oil is ISO 220 Vactra No. 4.

 

[Harri89]

I use mobil vactra #4 way lube.
What is best way to check, that oil is getting where its supposed to ?

 

[rklopp]

I use mobil vactra #4 way lube.
What is best way to check, that oil is getting where its supposed to ?

On my machine a little way oil squeezes out from the Y slide when the pump cycles. I have visual confirmation. Also the slide surfaces are wet with oil.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Oil oozing out between the slide and the base is a good indicator....
The down stream side of the oil lines to the "Y" are banjo bolts and fittings ...can slack the banjo bolt and cycle the lube pump to see if oil is getting past the feed check.
Also there is a way to change the timed interval on the lube cycle, while rapid moving all axis....
Further, i always give the lube pump a manual cycle before beginning any program....And always end all programs with a lube cycle.(its written into my post processor)

Lots of discussion here and i will get some blow back for making this point, but Vactra #4 is not the same chemistry as when the lube was specified for that machine.
Personally i use Mobil Vaccuoline 1419..(ISO 220) for all my CNC machines. I do believe its better!

Had some stiction on the "Z" slide years back before i rebuilt and dealt with the way galling issue...Never had any bump or stick on the "X" or "Y" , and since the repairs (years) the "Z" does not stick either.....Maybe my gibs are too loose....Or maybe the oil does make a difference....

Cheers Ross

 

[Harri89]

Theres a timer that controls the lubrication pump and there i can set what i want.
It was at 2500sec(~42min), i lowered it to 600sec (10min).

Should it be even less? If i recall right, deckel manual says like every 50 movements?

I had it running in 10sec cycles and its getting oil supplied everywhere. It starts to come from every place...