fusion 360 or something better?

[CNC CHRIS]

try MasterScam

 

[couch]

What are some some genuine drawbacks to Fusion 360 CAM for 2.5 and 3 axis milling?

Seems like the main criticism of the software is that it is associated with the home shop and maker crowds, and that it is sold by autodesk.

I hate subscription also, but can that even be considered a drawback for Fusion when most other CAM softwares make you pay thousands in "maintenance" fees every year. At least with Fusion, the software is in active development.

But I'm genuinely curious to hear what people dislike about Fusion CAM.

There aren’t any, people just like to complain about things they don’t understand. The software itself is more than adequate for most parts that run through most shops. ITAR Compliance is its main drawback and the reason it’s not in more shops.

 

[???]

At least with Fusion, the software is in active development.

But I'm genuinely curious to hear what people dislike about Fusion CAM.

The active development and the way they don't release a stable version with an option to test the Beta is a drawback. A tool path that worked previously can stop working altogether or do something unexpected all of a sudden with an upgrade.

 

[Mud]

There aren’t any, people just like to complain about things they don’t understand. The software itself is more than adequate for most parts that run through most shops. ITAR Compliance is its main drawback and the reason it’s not in more shops.

^^^^This. I started with Smartcam in the 80s. Went to Edgecam when smartcam died. A couple years ago I switched to Fusion when the $2K /year maintenance of Edgecam and indifferent support became offensive. For normal 3-4 axis work milling, what i get with Fusion is better than what I had with Edgecam in several ways. and I have 3d capability, adaptive etc.for way less than I was paying Edgecam for 2-1/2D. I have a complaint about fusion turning about adding rapid points but you didn't ask about turning. I'm hoping it gets added soon.

The active development and the way they don't release a stable version with an option to test the Beta is a drawback. A tool path that worked previously can stop working altogether or do something unexpected all of a sudden with an upgrade.

^^^^^Also this. My biggest complaint.

About the CAD - Fusion cad sucks for my purposes, but you didn't ask about that. I use SolidEdge and import it into Fusion.

 

[epsilonprecision]

So, as I am on here I will attempt to provide some info from a company that uses both MasterCam and Fusion, we also use Solidworks and Inventor... but this is not relevant.

For us, MasterCam is our goto for more complex parts, you have more control and overrides, Fusion 'Manufacture' module is quite rigid, but there are some cheats when it comes to adaptive clearing, parallel etc, Lars is a good source on YouTube, but all software really pales into insignificance over experience, which you will gain (not trying to sound condescending, it just is a huge part of the learning curve). I am an old man, I can look at drawings and start to put it together in my head where I am going to start, work holding etc, but this came at many adventures in 'willfuckye' engineering, broken vices, work pieces working loose amongst many other catastrophic failures.

I have never designed anything directly in Fusion, we will import it, but a couple of the guys here have used it and have had good results, like I said, I am old, the idea of learning a whole new system has zero appeal to me.

I think for simple work, 2.5/3 axis work, Fusion is great, we have also done some 4 axis work with it, you can add your machine into fusion and then simulate the entire setup, if you have multiple setups you can leave stock from the last which also helps.

There are a lot of things you will find frustrating about FUSION, but then again, I will say the same for all CAD/CAM packages, it is workflow, I was trained on Solidworks at uni, then I worked for a company that used Inventor and MasterCam, the workflow is different but the outcome is the same, it can all be frustrating, especially when you know in your head what you want to do but the software is not playing ball.. sitting there thinking this should be far easier than it is.

For me it was identifying the parts of the chain, post processing is designed to help not hinder, read the options, understand the process, buy a copy of the machinerys handbook. If it feels wrong, it probably is.

Thanks

B

 

[Donkey Hotey]

That was a fair and balanced review. We will not tolerate that nonsense around here!

 

[GiroDyno]

The active development and the way they don't release a stable version with an option to test the Beta is a drawback. A tool path that worked previously can stop working altogether or do something unexpected all of a sudden with an upgrade.

This has been my biggest (legitimate) complaint about Fusion as well.

They now give you the option of postponing updates for 2 weeks.
This is adequate time for them to fix some of the new bugs that pop up in more commonly used features. If you suddenly have an issue in your 2D Contour after the most recent update chances are a lot of other people did too, and they probably let the developers know about it. By the time the two weeks is up they hopefully have fixed it.
Until everyone starts using the 2 week delay and then we all find out about the bug simultaneously again...

I am constantly looking for a compelling reason to switch for both work and home use, but I haven't found one.
Everything saved to the cloud is also pretty annoying; I have a feeling that's going to be the dealbreaker when a contract comes up that doesn't allow for it.

 

[EmGo]

There aren’t any, people just like to complain about things they don’t understand.

I think I understand it fine. But Wildfire is so much more capable and also nicer to use and also doesn't involve the scum of the universe, autodicks. Altho it does involve second-level scum, ptc ...

 

[Fal Grunt]

I have a myriad of complaints with Fusion, many of them are tickets that are outstanding and years old. I have shown several issues with tool paths where the tool path generated is WRONG dimensionally compared to the part, or squirrelly, ie, weird. No response or fix. Their drawing package is nearly useless, as you will spend time making a drawing, to come back the next day, or a week, or a month, and find every dimension broken. They patently state that there is nothing wrong, WHILE LOOKING AT IT.

I have shown several times that their software generates incorrect geometry and get lectures about nurbs and whatever gibberish.

Simple things like non-standard threads are a giant pain in the ass. They want you to download 3rd party software and make system modifications to your directory. Things that when I was in IT 20 years ago would have blown managements mind if a software manufacturer said. I had one autodesk moron, i mean employee, tell me that modeling a custom thread was quick and easy with a few "work arounds". Autodesk should have trademarked "work around" before releasing Fusion, they would have made more money. His video about being quick and easy was a MOTHER FING 45 minutes!!!! Timed custom threads should be a click, instead they are a pain in the ass and machining them is a guessing game of adjusting lead starts.

Updates break models, updates break sketches, updates break tool paths, etc etc.

They are so focused on "WHATS NEW", but rarely if ever put out a working and proved out "update".

I keep a casual spread sheet where I log time and "cost" for using fusion. The cost far exceeds the actual price. I haven't reached the cost of Solid Works ($4k) or MasterCam ($15k) and can't justify the two.... YET.

 

[DavidScott]

I have been using Fusion since before you could pay for it and was on the CAM beta team before it was released. How much I liked it was closely related to how familiar I was with it. Many of the issues I had with it were from not knowing how it was supposed to be used and in the end I couldn't blame the software, just my ignorance. Sure the software was lacking sometimes but most of the time it was me. I have had it do buggy things but they have been rare occurrences. One rule of thumb I learned the hard way, twice, is do not have work in progress when you update it! Save your work, close it, and then update. Now that you can put off updates it is a non-issue. Custom threads are easy if you don't model them. Model the id and set the pitch when you create the tool path. It is sensitive to how you create your CAD models but once you learn how it likes to be done you should be fine. I use the history feature and respect it when making changes, you can't just do them willy nilly. I do have some old models that are buggy but they were all made before I learned how to use the software, but they are not buggy enough to make me redo them. I haven't worked with someone else's model so I have no idea of problems with working on imported models. If you stay inside the Fusion ecosystem and leverage the integrated CAD and CAM it is quite powerful. Things like making a family of parts that have small changes between them can have big time savings. If you did your model correctly you can make the change to the model and all of the toolpaths will update automatically. New parts can take all of 2 minutes to make the changes and post the new programs. This tight integration between the CAD and CAM software is something I consider a must have, for my needs. All in all I don't have any important issues with it and do think it is by far the best bang for your buck.

 

[Fal Grunt]

I have been using Fusion since before you could pay for it and was on the CAM beta team before it was released. How much I liked it was closely related to how familiar I was with it. Many of the issues I had with it were from not knowing how it was supposed to be used and in the end I couldn't blame the software, just my ignorance. Sure the software was lacking sometimes but most of the time it was me. I have had it do buggy things but they have been rare occurrences. One rule of thumb I learned the hard way, twice, is do not have work in progress when you update it! Save your work, close it, and then update. Now that you can put off updates it is a non-issue. Custom threads are easy if you don't model them. Model the id and set the pitch when you create the tool path. It is sensitive to how you create your CAD models but once you learn how it likes to be done you should be fine. I use the history feature and respect it when making changes, you can't just do them willy nilly. I do have some old models that are buggy but they were all made before I learned how to use the software, but they are not buggy enough to make me redo them. I haven't worked with someone else's model so I have no idea of problems with working on imported models. If you stay inside the Fusion ecosystem and leverage the integrated CAD and CAM it is quite powerful. Things like making a family of parts that have small changes between them can have big time savings. If you did your model correctly you can make the change to the model and all of the toolpaths will update automatically. New parts can take all of 2 minutes to make the changes and post the new programs. This tight integration between the CAD and CAM software is something I consider a must have, for my needs. All in all I don't have any important issues with it and do think it is by far the best bang for your buck.

You should train Autodesk how to use their software. I have spent hours, literally hours, in meetings with their "experts" who cannot get a model to change without wiping out all the tool paths. They cannot get models to update correctly when derived. They cannot get the drawings to not explode when any change is made. I have one set of models I made at the direction of one of their experts, it is so convoluted and F'd up, that you cannot make ANY changes, otherwise it wipes out all of the programming. Remodeling and reprogramming would take.... days?

When I say custom threads, I don't mean an odd pitch, or a different diameter, I mean... custom. Well, most are standards, but industry specific standards. The threads themselves are often machined, not with a thread tool. Think thread blocks for blow molds and the like. And they are timed, to a datum. Some parts are timed to a mating part, which has to be timed to a cam, which has to be timed to an internal datum. It sure would be swell if it could be modeled so that you know everything is timed correctly.

Importing models are even worse. Good lord. I have a customer that sends step and dxf files and they are never right. Fusion will take one dxf file with a contained sketch and blow it apart into multiple un associated sketches.

I had one meeting with some lady who claimed to be somebody in the US, and some guy in the UK who was their top CAM guy. He couldn't get the tool paths to work, but showed that on his machine they worked perfectly. He said it was my model that was the issue. I modeled the part wrong. So he showed me how to model it. And the tool paths didn't work. I wish I could have recorded that session when he said, and I quote, "What the fuck!".

That sums up Fusion pretty well to me.

 

[DavidScott]

You should train Autodesk how to use their software. I have spent hours, literally hours, in meetings with their "experts" who cannot get a model to change without wiping out all the tool paths. They cannot get models to update correctly when derived. They cannot get the drawings to not explode when any change is made. I have one set of models I made at the direction of one of their experts, it is so convoluted and F'd up, that you cannot make ANY changes, otherwise it wipes out all of the programming. Remodeling and reprogramming would take.... days?

When I say custom threads, I don't mean an odd pitch, or a different diameter, I mean... custom. Well, most are standards, but industry specific standards. The threads themselves are often machined, not with a thread tool. Think thread blocks for blow molds and the like. And they are timed, to a datum. Some parts are timed to a mating part, which has to be timed to a cam, which has to be timed to an internal datum. It sure would be swell if it could be modeled so that you know everything is timed correctly.

Importing models are even worse. Good lord. I have a customer that sends step and dxf files and they are never right. Fusion will take one dxf file with a contained sketch and blow it apart into multiple un associated sketches.

I had one meeting with some lady who claimed to be somebody in the US, and some guy in the UK who was their top CAM guy. He couldn't get the tool paths to work, but showed that on his machine they worked perfectly. He said it was my model that was the issue. I modeled the part wrong. So he showed me how to model it. And the tool paths didn't work. I wish I could have recorded that session when he said, and I quote, "What the fuck!".

That sums up Fusion pretty well to me.

It is interesting how different our experiences are. One of my workflows is to model the parts in separate files, insert derive them into an assembly file, insert derive that into another file to create the CAM paths from. The CAM file may also have a fixture inserted into it, that has clamps and stops insert derived into it before inserting the fixture file into the CAM file. And still no issues, other than trying to figure out where to modify parts and then get everything updated so the CAM file is up to date. That is a worst case scenario but I have a few CAM files like this and still make changes and post code fine. I often insert derive a model into a file to do the CAM so I don't get the model file too cluttered up. Most of the components in my computer are now 14 years old using an AMD Phenom II X4 CPU so this is all on old hardware.

 

[Fal Grunt]

I'll show this example, just because I am working on it today and it just happened.

My "workflow" is similar to yours, depending on several factors. In this case I typically model the "parent" assembly, often times bringing several derived parts into one file. In this case I have my main part, then all of its associated parts, some of which I may make, some of which I may not. Depending on the complexity of the part, I may have individual part files with their associated machining, and I may have separate machining files for a particular part if the machining has more stuff involved. Ie, custom fixtures, custom tooling, custom work holding, etc.

So I have my main part I am working on, and I make a change to a derived part. The derived part is not machined in the parent file, just the parent part. Only the parent part. But changing a dimension on the derived part, which is nothing but derived in this file, breaks tool paths. How? Why? I have had an Autodesk employee on the phone look at this exact occurrence and tell me it can't happen while looking at it and seeing it with their own two eyes.


There is no reason in my mind why changing a dimension to a derived part, should break those. Absolutely nothing. When you open them, it is screwy stuff, the T19 now says the retract height is below the feed height. Both are still set to "system" settings. T9 has several broken selections, the selections are still there, just broken. Absolutely nothing changed with this part!!!!

Do I have tons to learn, 100% you bet. Fusion claims that you can model where making a change will alter everything down stream. I've never been able to figure that one out. I'll own it. I'm sure it works somewhere, somehow. No amount of turning the sketch black, making key points coincident with model geometry, will make down stream geometry change.

Regarding your computer, I am shocked it runs Fusion! My computer is 2 or 3 years old, and was then the bare minimum allowed by Fusion, and it barely runs it. I had a Fusion guy from the Philippines tell me my Fusion was the slowest he had ever seen. He then proceeded to tell me that my tool path errors were because my graphics card wasn't good enough. I needed a $1800 graphics card so Fusion could generate tool paths. Oh... Ok... I'll get right on that.

 

[DavidScott]

I only got a graphics card about 6 years ago, and what I have is pretty lame, not even 4k. I didn't notice any difference over the onboard graphics. Until 6 years ago I had 4 megs of DDR2 ram.

How long since you wiped Fusion off your computer and did a clean install? Same for the operating system? Just a thought. I had to for Win11 a few years ago, which was a major improvement for the operating system and really sped up my computer. I should say I built my computer from scratch so no bloatware or other BS, and I will never buy a prebuilt again, ever.

 

[EmGo]

Do I have tons to learn, 100% you bet. Fusion claims that you can model where making a change will alter everything down stream. I've never been able to figure that one out. I'll own it. I'm sure it works somewhere, somehow. No amount of turning the sketch black, making key points coincident with model geometry, will make down stream geometry change.

That all works perfect in Pro/E (wildfire, don't know about "creo"). Pro/E has its own peculiarities and annoyances but it does work, the way it's supposed to. And it's plenty plenty capable.

The guys who sell it are annoying but they may have a single-seat deal ? Or find an old copy somewhere and do the license transfer ? Skip the "maintenance" schtick, that's nothing but a rip unless you are GM and can command some attention, from any software vendor.

It may be worth your while ....

 

[Fal Grunt]

How long since you wiped Fusion off your computer and did a clean install? Same for the operating system? Just a thought.

Well, that has been a couple years. But now I get to. The recent update which I have been putting off completely screwed Fusion up. All the "fixes" show you un installing from Fusion being open, but Fusion won't open. I can't uninstall it, because my computer says it isn't there.

More fun....

I haven't the foggiest how to wipe the operating system and reinstall. How do you do that? I have no way to reinstall it?

 

[triumph406]

I really wish we would add Fusion to the list of the machine tools that can't be mentioned here. It has been exhibited time and time again that they aren't "big boy caliber", falling more in line with the likes of the Atlas and Craftsman etc etc brands. I think it was back in December there were multiple posts weekly about problems with it. We pay big money for our CAD/CAM system like a business should do, the rest of the hobby level guys running Fusion on Centroid controllers can shoot over to the home shop site. I don't think there has been a strictly positive thread about Fusion here.

And let's not forget BOBCAD as well.

That's until I show you work a friend does in BOBCAD most of you would dream of being able to do. He designs, and makes parts/assemblies in BOBCAD that most here don't have the imagination or the ability to do.

I bet there's Fusion 360 drivers out there doing some damn impressive work.

 

[triumph406]

We pay big money for our CAD/CAM system like a business should do,

Is it a business requirement to pay big money for CAD/CAM? Didn't realize it was

I stopped paying for cad/cam and maintenance a loooooong time ago when I realized it had started to plateau in capability (as did my abilities, limited as they are). I don't seem to have suffered.

Now if I was running full motion 5-axis like you people with the big boy pants do, I'd have to re-invest. But as I don't, I won't.

 

[usolutions]

My personal grudges with Fusion as complete CAD/CAM ecosystem are:
1) Badly optimized sketches. need a big array of geometry - out of luck - workaround: scale features instead of sketch lines
2) SLOOOOOOW assemblies when have moving joints. workaround: make and proof sub-assemblies and only make one master to verify that bolt hole line up and no part interference is present.
3) Wonky 3d adaptive - workaround A: ignore it and go with the flow, workaround B: use 2d adaptive and get it done manually.
4) Freaking crazy speeds and feeds default in generic library workaround: postprocessor has checking if "default settings" are present and errors out if they are.
5) Simulations are run only in clouds. It takes 2-3 times longer than on my PC locally. No workaround found
6) it sometimes randomly crashes. no workaround found
7) Components or bodies if mirrored are not mirror-constrained relative to selected mirror plane. No workaround found, manually constraining everything.
8) pipe threads are stupid sizes if you run metric.
9) Contact sets are badly optimised and borderline unusable.
10) Sheet metal design can not be made afterwards to separate component, as if it was solid model. Workaround : always if working with sheet metal do "create new component" even if you have only this part from sheet metal. Afterwards if anything changes you are screwed.

My workflow making parts from assemblies/sub assemblies:
1) create manufacturing model
2) remove all other parts that don't need processing at this time
3) insert derive setup for my cnc
4) do usual CAM manipulations.

What I like from recently added features that are great help:
1) manufacturing models
2) in machine simulation it shows overtravels. Having japanese VMC, spindle nose does not reach table by quite a margin. Now i know if my tool is too short before I run the code.
3) Automatic fasteners, that are useful for physics simulation.
4) Added "Action" to manual NC, can now add any custom action to Postprocessor instead of fatfingertyping manual pass-through.

What I like in general
1) Everything is parametric, both CAD side as well as CAM side of things. I bet most users underutilized CAM variable programming to automate modes, from choosing drilling canned cycle type based on drill length, if it is TSC, what material is being processed
2) Document recovery is ok. In case app crash usually all or most of the work is recovered.
3) Postprocessor is very flexible. Pallet changes, tool preload for repeat work, high speed surfacing mode, machine simulation, probing, manual tool change with automatic tool measurement, you name it, move to special location if stock is high and tool is long, and risk of interference during tool change is present. All done on top of very shitty generic Yasnac post. Cant say anything about 4-5 axis work yet.
4) It is integrated and seamless between CAD and CAM sides.

 

[EmGo]

I haven't the foggiest how to wipe the operating system and reinstall. How do you do that? I have no way to reinstall it?

I was going to say < format c: > works good but these days, the reinstall is probably a bitch ! Ah owe mah soul to the company store ...

I looked a little, a while back the base price of Pro/E was $2,000/year. That's no frills but you don't need piping and fea and team collaboration ? At $150/month might be worth looking at. (Price has probably tripled since then tho, like everything else. Thanks, Paul ! What a swell guy !)

(One beginner tip - if you want to automate drilling later, you have to use "hole", not a revolved surface as a cut. That's my gift to modelling posterity)