What's new
What's new

How can U.S. stay on top of the world?

Another son, who is in 10th grade, and an honor roll student may enroll in a 2 year Metals Trades program next year - over 2 years he'll get an introduction to manual machining, CNC, metrology, CAD and basic fab techniques including gas, stick, MIG and TIG welding.
And what might that lead to? a flunky engineering job somewhere? but he'l be able to fix his lawnmower...big deal, better off hiring a illegal to cut his grass.

Lets hope he smartens up and ends up on Wall Street trading for Goldman or Morgan where his income will be in millions, not measured in machinists mode of tenths.
 
Gary,

You may worship at the feet of Mammon, but not everyone else does. Take off the cynical glasses for a minute and look at your own career path and that of your friends. How many people with any horsepower start in one profession and stay in the same exact place for their full working life. It's not hard to make a lot of money if that is all that you want to do. What is harder is constructing a life which enables you to make enough money to live the way you want to live. There is nothing wrong with the trades if that is where your interests lie, nothing wrong with engineering if you enjoy the work and are competent, and I guess the same could be said about Wall St..

People change and grow through their lives. From your postings, it seems as if you started in the trades, probably following in your father's footsteps, may have owned your own shop for a while and now in your sunset years, play on a computer trading stocks. Hopefully a life well lived. When you were 18 would you have wanted to do what you do now? Could you have done what you do now? Or is your ability to play on the stock market utilizing knowledge gained from your work experience and business experience?

Gaining basic mechanical skills, coupled with a decent education opens a lot of doors.You can work with your hands, your mind or both. Honestly, I don't see a down side to gaining trade skills as long as you also exercise your mind and gain math, science and writing skills also.
 
"Gaining basic mechanical skills, coupled with a decent education opens a lot of doors..."

No kidding. I made the point (elswhere, while
trying to have a conversation with missionmfg)
that a four year college education is still the
best ticket out of the bottom ladder rungs,
especially for the folks at the *real* bottom.

Like,it will keep you out of jail, in the next
ten years.

A decent education however does not have to
happen at a dedicated engineering school. I
think the point is that many of those jobs are
highly at risk right now, and if the schools
don't realize it they will be graduating kids
straight to the "no more of those jobs" line.

"Make enough money to live the way you want
to live?" I think that's a *highly* variable
range!
It's certainly true that the more
bread you have, the less you-know-what you have
to eat....

Jim
 
AndyF


You may worship at the feet of Mammon
Never heard of the guy...
Did he have something to do with the first car to win at Indy?

And if I had known in 1960 what the US would become by 2000, you bet your @ss I would have followed a much different path.
 
Jim,

I don't think anyone has ever said, that the only way to get a decent education is through an engineering program at a dedicated engineering school. While my oldest is thinking of engineering, the schools he has applied to are mainly universities, so if he decides that engineering isn't the right path, he'll be able to change direction. He could also end up with an engineering degree and never work as an engineer.

When I was recruiting engineers most of the career paths I was recruiting for were not classical engineering career paths. I was hiring for the intellectual and problem solving skills taught in an engineering program, not for skills in FEA or thermo. This type of recruiting continues today. I visited one engineering school near NYC with my son and learned that many of their graduates were going into the financial sector as analysts because of their math and computer skills as well as their problem solving training.

You're right that many engineering and science jobs are at risk right now. At the same time many new ones are being created. Our economy is going through a significant change and the large companies which provided many technical jobs are shedding jobs left and right. At the same time, small companies are starting up and new jobs are being created. Whole new fields of engineering are also being created. 30 years ago how much demand was there for nano-materials? Today dedicated engineering programs are being developed in this area, the same can be said for bio-medical engineering and many areas in computer and information systems engineering.

We have several examples on this board - Motion Guru has posted several times regarding his search for engineering talent, Comatose has written about his experience starting a company right after completing his engineering degree. My experience through High School and under-grad was working part-time for a friend's father and volunteer firefighter who left a secure engineering job to start his own manufacturing company and created a unique set of electronic monitors and controls for fire equipment and industry.

The business landscape is changing rapidly and many engineering jobs are vanishing, but more are being created than are being destroyed and people with a interest in the field will continue to have good opportunities. I guess at bottom, I don't buy into the doom and gloom scenario. Sure, in 25 years IBM, GM, Cisco, HP and Kodak may not be industrial icons in the US anymore, but Studebaker, Bethlehem Steel and many other companies didn't make it out of the 20th century. Change is constant. We need to provide our kids with the tools to be successful in a changing world and education in many different flavors is essential.
 
Gary,

"And if I had known in 1960 what the US would become by 2000, you bet your @ss I would have followed a much different path."

But you didn't know what would happen. Every step of the way we try to make the best decisions we can based on the information we have. A better question to ask would be whether based on what you knew then you regret forging the career path you ended up with.
 
Whatz dun is dun....water over the dam.

Now is a much different time and place...and what I am doing now may or may not turn out as planned, but at least it does not involve the assumption that the US govmnt will protect it's citizens.
 
Oh Gary, you are so silly sometimes- of course it does- if, as you have said, your day and income is concerned with futures trading, that entire market could not exist unless the US government provided a secure financial and political environment so that people felt confident there even would be a future, much less a market in intangible things like stocks, commodities, and derivatives.

Every day, the entire world gives its opinion on the likelihood of the US staying afloat- to the tune of several trillion dollars in trades in currency, stocks, bonds, and futures.
You dont see any of that being done in Congolese francs or Uruguay pesos, do you? Of course not.
For all your doom and gloom, you, and everybody else in the world, is perfectly willing to bet all on the fact that the USA will protect its citizens. If you really didnt believe that, your "From" tag would read something like "Switzerland".


As far as the US being on top-
Who says it should be?
Change is the nature of the universe.
As many of our foreign posters have observed over the years, we have what it takes- resources, education, money- and if we dont stay on top, to me thats a sign that we dont deserve to be, that we arent hungry enough.
When I see what the average rich guy does with his money- buy gewgaws and gimcracks, yachts and big screen tvs- as opposed to what the average rich guy in India or China does- buy american aluminum and drivetrain companies- it doesnt make me think we have any inherent right to be on top.

As far as blaming it all on "kids today", I would like to quote this, which I read in The US Machine Tool Industry From 1900-1950, by Harless Wagoner-
This is referring to the time period of 1890 to 1910
"Apprentices were often refered to as lazy, idle, stupid, careless, vicious or any one of a dozen other undesirable things, although there was no evidence that this was more often the case than in the past. Various explanations were advanced during the early years of the 20th century as to why few boys, or too few of those considered the more desirable type, were interested in becoming machinists. Among these were (1) lack of social status of machinists, (2) poor working conditions, (3) poor quality of apprentice training in many shops (4)lack of opportunity for advancement (5) the desire of many boys starting work to make as much money as possible within a short time.
Early in 1908, Fred Geier, President of Cinncinnati Milling Machine, reported that his firm had thirty eight machinist apprentices, and that these boys were very weak in elementary arithmetic and were unable to read drawings. "

The point being, of course, that the more things change, the more they stay the same, and grumpy old farts like us have been complaining about ignorant young whippersnappers for approximately the last 8000 years. And still, things get invented, the world goes on, and those dumb kids grow up and complain about their kids.
 
"I visited one engineering school near NYC..."

Which one, out of curiosity? And yes you are
correct, the 'defection rate' the financial
sector is pretty large, for exactly the reasons
you mentioned.

And you are also very right about the rate of
change - it's pretty fast, and that is one reason
that the job situation is in such a state of
flux. Schools can barely figure out what careers
are hot before that industry goes away. Four
years is nothing.

I would say that the decrease in product cycle
time (at least in my industry) is one reason
that scientific research is no longer being
funded here. They're too busy trying to keep
up with development.

And you are also correct about the biotech
industries. We never talk about that on this
board, but in some areas (cambridge, ma, for
example) the field is wide open and *booming*,
there are startups and all kinds of cross
fertilization between academia and industry
going on. It's all in one spot so there's a
real critical mass in that town. Growth
industry? That is *the* one I would say.

Jim
 
Jim,

The school was Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken. Lots of grads going to the financial sector - some for IT, facilities management and systems development, but others into analyst positions.
 
"And you are also very right about the rate of
change..." A few months back, we attended an National Honor Society induction for my older son, a junior in high school. That was a major talking point in the speech given by the principal. It is the ever increasing rate of change that has most parents unnerved when it comes to guiding their child it a career path. What's hot today is gone tomorrow.

When I was my son's age, I wanted no part of college. I was a gear head, and wanted to follow in my Dad's footsteps and become a tool & die maker. He "insisted" that I get my mechanical engineering degree, but allowed me to work for him all thru college. How right he was!

As for our 3 children, our daughter is a junior in college studying to be a teacher. The high school junior has no clue what he wants to do. My plan is to "persuade" him to start taking classes at the local community college, and work at anything he thinks he might like. I will not push him into a career path that he will probably grow to hate. In time, he'll find his place, and can then finish his 4 year degree. My feeling is that since you spend the bulk of your life working at something, you might as well enjoy it.

Our younger son is starting high school next year and is interested in architecture. One of his friend's dad is an architect, and in time, will give my son a taste of what that is all about. He's also a budding cast iron junkie. there's hope yet!
 
There's hope for him... he can combine being an architect and cast iron...

Here is a building made with cast iron

dome_1.jpg


Do you recognize it?
 
Stevens Institute is a true heavy hitter in the
engineering world. My best man graduated with
an undergrad degree and from his descriptions,
it's a real meat grinder, academically. My
cousin taught literature there briefly.

It's no suprise that grads from there are in
heavy demand in the financial sector, also
realize that hoboken is the undergoing a real
resurgence because many of the NY firms what
were 'evicted' by the events of 9/11 relocated
across the river to hoboken.

My friend always called it the South Hoboken
Institute of Technology.


Jim
 








 
Back
Top