Why should an employee have confidence in your business?

[William Payne]

Isn't that why the other end of this question is pages and pages longer ? Because if you can't just jack up prices to cover higher wages, then what's left in that other 20% to lure people ?

As a non business owner who has seen exactly what you are saying I often wonder just how truly viable many businesses actually are. Someone might say that would put me out of work but to be honest I want honest employers.

I want a boss who is honest when things are bad and honest that they can't pay.

What I don't want are employers who say anything to get an employee in the door and feed them a bunch of rubbish about opportunities that they know they will never deliver.

 

[William Payne]

But that could be an unrealistic expectation on my part. If a boss tells me they are going to give me a certain opportunity and advancement and I deliver on whatever they want in return I hold them to their word. I expect them to deliver.

 

[john.k]

All I need is the surety that if I work a week ,I will be paid on Friday ........I understood this had been guaranteed by law ,but since the Bonza airlines fail,seems this is not so...............Running my own business for many years I am somewhat practised in the techniques of making deadbeats pay up.............and staying out of jail.

 

[EmGo]

I often wonder just how truly viable many businesses actually are.

You live in New Zealand, so it's probably different. But in a business school sense, most small shops in the US are not economically viable. Neither are most restaurants, or any other type of productive small business. The viable ones are the companies that make a career out of ripping you off, e.g. insurance, real estate, banking, software, that sort of thing. If you are looking for a thirty year career, retirement, gold watch type of thing, better to just forget it right now, that's pie in the sky.

If you want to work in manufacturing - or a lot of other fields too - then your goals have to involve things besides money, cuz you ain't gonna get it here. (More exactly cuz someone will yell, it's not impossible but mostly unlikely. If you are lucky and smart and work hard you can feed yourself and maybe get a place to live out of it. Maybe. It's getting harder, not easier.)

If a boss tells me they are going to give me a certain opportunity and advancement and I deliver on whatever they want in return I hold them to their word. I expect them to deliver.

Like I tell the assist all the time, the world doesn't care what you want

 

[William Payne]

You live in New Zealand, so it's probably different. But in a business school sense, most small shops in the US are not economically viable. Neither are most restaurants, or any other type of productive small business. The viable ones are the companies that make a career out of ripping you off, e.g. insurance, real estate, banking, that sort of thing. If you are looking for a thirty year career, retirement, gold watch type of thing, better to just forget it right now, that's pie in the sky.


Like I tell the assist all the time, the world doesn't care what you want

That’s fine. Just be honest about it and I’ll go somewhere else.

When you have bills to pay loyalty is only as far as one’s wallet.

 

[EmGo]

That’s fine. Just be honest about it and I’ll go somewhere else.

Honesty ? In this world ? That's another subject but we are lied to from the time we get up in the morning until we go sleepy-bye at night. We are surrounded with lies and pounded by them continuously likes waves on the beach. We even lie to ourselves. I don't think you are going to change that, either.

You just have to figure out a way to deal with it.

When you have bills to pay loyalty is only as far as one’s wallet.

Exactly. Figure out what your own goals are and try to get there. And try to enjoy the ride because it's all we get. There ain't no pie in the sky.

 

[William Payne]

Honesty ? In this world ? That's another subject but we are lied to from the time we get up in the morning until we go sleepy-bye at night. We are surrounded with lies and pounded by them continuously likes waves on the beach. We even lie to ourselves. I don't think you are going to change that, either.

You just have to figure out a way to deal with it.


Exactly. Figure out what your own goals are and try to get there. And try to enjoy the ride because it's all we get. There ain't no pie in the sky.

I stopped watching broadcast tv a long time ago. I also don’t follow the news much. A persons word still has a semblance of meaning here in New Zealand.

 

[EmGo]

A persons word still has a semblance of meaning here in New Zealand.

Then you should have nothing to worry about

 

[PDW]

That’s fine. Just be honest about it and I’ll go somewhere else.

When you have bills to pay loyalty is only as far as one’s wallet.

Exactly.

You need to think of yourself as a contractor. You're delivering X hours of best effort in return for Y dollars in pay.

The employer isn't entitled to more unless they pay more.

If you can find somewhere paying more then unless there are non-cash reasons to stay, you move.

Employers have demonstrated no loyalty to employees so it's foolish to give them any.

As long as it's a mutually beneficial arrangement, fine. Otherwise, move.

Same logic as you need to use with insurance companies, telcos and other businesses. They reward loyalty with higher prices and screw you over while giving new customers price breaks to get them in.

PDW

 

[CNCAppsJames]

My 1st 12 years in manufacturing I was an employee. I saw many of the same things in some of the companies I've seen mentioned and I judged them the same way many that have never actually run a business typically do. In my 13th year I opted to start my own business.

Once I got a taste of the IRS tax code, my opinion of what business owners do and why they do it completely changed. My business only lasted 3 years. It was an expensive lesson, but one I am SO glad I had the support of my wife and the freedom to learn.

That experience changed how I view the employee/employer relationship forever. Since then I've only worked for a single company, and it's been for the last 17 years. I think above all else, I learned how to be a better employee. Trying to pass on those life lessons has proven difficult... most just don't want to listen about the realities of owning a business.

 

[Houdini]

My 1st 12 years in manufacturing I was an employee. I saw many of the same things in some of the companies I've seen mentioned and I judged them the same way many that have never actually run a business typically do. In my 13th year I opted to start my own business.

Once I got a taste of the IRS tax code, my opinion of what business owners do and why they do it completely changed. My business only lasted 3 years. It was an expensive lesson, but one I am SO glad I had the support of my wife and the freedom to learn.

That experience changed how I view the employee/employer relationship forever. Since then I've only worked for a single company, and it's been for the last 17 years. I think above all else, I learned how to be a better employee. Trying to pass on those life lessons has proven difficult... most just don't want to listen about the realities of owning a business.

Amen brotha, same, I didn't run a company to learn, I started reading books to start my own, the knowledge I gained changed the employee I was,
and I was a better employee for my self, sanity, and for the company, and made more money, but people don't buy it.

 

[Clive603]

Fundamentally a viable business has to be able to support wage increase for its employees at above inflation rates. So continuous investment in equipment et al is needed to deliver more for every £ of employee pay. Whether more in numbers so a lower price can support higher wages or more in quality so a higher price can support higher wages.

For example a good friend of mine was facilities manger for a large firm of solicitors back when desktop computing / printing was just becoming viable. His stories of the savings made when something like 100 legal secretaries, basically very skilled typists with a certain amount of legal knowledge, were replaced by far fewer people running desktop computers and the ramifications for changes in the rest of the business are instructive.

Failing that it will become a zombie business. Walking dead whilst consuming its own capital until, figuratively speaking, the man with the bulldozer squares the pile of shovels.

For all sorts of reasons zombification is inevitable once the company management is taken over by financial and political types. They inevitably lack the real world understanding of whats needed to make things roll. Given a Steve Jobs, Elon Musk of similar guy / gal who knows what they want, is able to drive folk their way and has a vision matching a viable product a company can be saved. But most just meander down and disappear.

It really doesn't help that the financial crew have never figured out how to finance a new factory when the old one is obsolete in a static, slowly growing, or even slowly declining market. When everything is growing like topsy they are all over you. But when you need something like an honest sale and leaseback deal on the old factory to get a new one built, in the UK at least, they just steal the company and sell the land for housing estates. The issue being that you can't just stop running the old factory 'cos it's obsolete you have to keep going whilst soldering teh vast expense of new build. UK business finance always seemed to be obsessed with incremental improvement based on retained profits being enough to support a loan. Which is generally not enough.

 

[William Payne]

My biggest problem with being an employee is I’m never going to achieve my life goals if I have to wait for maybe one day if I’m lucky getting an opportunity by an employer. I can’t risk going 10 years in a company and not getting anywhere. If I am working for someone, as long as I do the best I can I need the job to go somewhere.

I have challenged people to answer the question of naming a way to achieve a good level of financial security as an employee but nobody has. When I ask the question people say I’m not listening.

For me I don’t see any other way of building the legacy I want to build without having to be be self employed.

I’m going to have to stop procrastinating and get something going on my own this year. I can’t rely on employers anymore.

 

[Houdini]

I have challenged people to answer the question of naming a way to achieve a good level of financial security as an employee but nobody has. When I ask the question people say I’m not listening.

Your not listening! (most lack the education to know what needs done)
70-20-10
Live on 70%,
20% towards debts, until paid off. then moved to investing.
10% investing.

Live on less, invest more ( an American do that hahaha, thats un-American, most live at 120%+ of income )

Modern day living - multiple streams of income.
you cant live and invest on a single income anymore, system of business have changed.

Known knowledge today, gen Z taking advantage.

College is a scam, government back loans caused high throughput, increased population, and degreed people, supply demand, too many people with degree, shit education, now pay lowered and jobs are full.

stats - over 80%, vast majority of people who go to college don't work in the fields they have a degree in.

the 9-5 job was invented by Ford 1926, not long a go, so shows things change, times do change, as we have seen since the virus and slightly before the 9-5 is dying.

stats - average inflation rates have caused pricing to be offset, IE for the boomers the cost of a home was a lower percentage of their monthly income compared to now, even on averages for same size homes

the rise of tiny homes, or other smaller living dwellings - more and more of the young genz and millenials are realizing that the large expensive home and land that takes a lifetime to pay off is not worth it, it doesn't bring happiness but pain.

Your working for a communist dictator, what !? - When you work for a business the owner, or CEO, share holders...they own and control the means of production, not you the employees as a group, this is a communist system.
Dictatorship - the owner,CEO, or top level execs are not voted on for the power or control of the business, the employees have no control over who controls the system, this is a dictatorship.
gen z and others are figuring this out, and no one wants to work under a communist dictatorship. (or do you)

fractional investing, now younger generations are taking advantage of the knowledge and accessibility to run and create investments at their finger tips, investing smartly in index or what ever at the touch of a button on a phone.

learn money and economic strategies that modify the world you live in, become financially literate,you wont learn it in school or college, another skill the young generations are leveraging.

the world is a far different world than it was just 30 years a go, learn it and take advantage .


I have 2 gen Z kids, crazy different world for them, the information highway has changed everything, they do and are doing totally different things than I did, have far more knowledge
not just that they learned so far, but at their fingertips in a moment. An extremely advantages time until acclamation.

 

[William Payne]

Your not listening! (most lack the education to know what needs done)
70-20-10
Live on 70%,
20% towards debts, until paid off. then moved to investing.
10% investing.

Live on less, invest more ( an American do that hahaha, thats un-American, most live at 120%+ of income )

Modern day living - multiple streams of income.
you cant live and invest on a single income anymore, system of business have changed.

Known knowledge today, gen Z taking advantage.

College is a scam, government back loans caused high throughput, increased population, and degreed people, supply demand, too many people with degree, shit education, now pay lowered and jobs are full.

stats - over 80%, vast majority of people who go to college don't work in the fields they have a degree in.

the 9-5 job was invented by Ford 1926, not long a go, so shows things change, times do change, as we have seen since the virus and slightly before the 9-5 is dying.

stats - average inflation rates have caused pricing to be offset, IE for the boomers the cost of a home was a lower percentage of their monthly income compared to now, even on averages for same size homes

the rise of tiny homes, or other smaller living dwellings - more and more of the young genz and millenials are realizing that the large expensive home and land that takes a lifetime to pay off is not worth it, it doesn't bring happiness but pain.

Your working for a communist dictator, what !? - When you work for a business the owner, or CEO, share holders...they own and control the means of production, not you the employees as a group, this is a communist system.
Dictatorship - the owner,CEO, or top level execs are not voted on for the power or control of the business, the employees have no control over who controls the system, this is a dictatorship.
gen z and others are figuring this out, and no one wants to work under a communist dictatorship. (or do you)

fractional investing, now younger generations are taking advantage of the knowledge and accessibility to run and create investments at their finger tips, investing smartly in index or what ever at the touch of a button on a phone.

learn money and economic strategies that modify the world you live in, become financially literate,you wont learn it in school or college, another skill the young generations are leveraging.

the world is a far different world than it was just 30 years a go, learn it and take advantage .


I have 2 gen Z kids, crazy different world for them, the information highway has changed everything, they do and are doing totally different things than I did, have far more knowledge
not just that they learned so far, but at their fingertips in a moment. An extremely advantages time until acclamation.

That was actually a decent response to my question. Most don’t even say any of that.

 

[PDW]

My biggest problem with being an employee is I’m never going to achieve my life goals if I have to wait for maybe one day if I’m lucky getting an opportunity by an employer. I can’t risk going 10 years in a company and not getting anywhere. If I am working for someone, as long as I do the best I can I need the job to go somewhere.

I have challenged people to answer the question of naming a way to achieve a good level of financial security as an employee but nobody has. When I ask the question people say I’m not listening.

For me I don’t see any other way of building the legacy I want to build without having to be be self employed.

I’m going to have to stop procrastinating and get something going on my own this year. I can’t rely on employers anymore.

Employer pays you for ~40 hours/week.

You need to find something else in the other hours and do it.

I used to do all sorts of stuff in my own time using the skills I developed at work, primarily software design/coding. That extra money bootstrapped us up a lot faster.

But ALL that extra money went into paying off debt on our house, not consumption/lifestyle, and we never took out a loan for anything that wasn't an asset - no car loans etc etc.

Worked for us. Lot of work over many years but once the house is paid for the mortgage money went into savings. We'd never had that money to spend so never missed it, just diverted it.

It takes a lot of time and discipline plus a modicum of luck.

PDW

 

[William Payne]

Employer pays you for ~40 hours/week.

You need to find something else in the other hours and do it.

I used to do all sorts of stuff in my own time using the skills I developed at work, primarily software design/coding. That extra money bootstrapped us up a lot faster.

But ALL that extra money went into paying off debt on our house, not consumption/lifestyle, and we never took out a loan for anything that wasn't an asset - no car loans etc etc.

Worked for us. Lot of work over many years but once the house is paid for the mortgage money went into savings. We'd never had that money to spend so never missed it, just diverted it.

It takes a lot of time and discipline plus a modicum of luck.

PDW

Yeah my biggest fundamental financial mistake that I made from the age of 18 to now (36) was having an expectation that a day job/career would allow me enough income to live the life I want to live and allow me to buy equipment to start my own business so that I can create my own legacy.

When I say “life I want to live” there is nothing extreme about it. For lack of a better description I want that traditional 1950’s American dream. Nice house (not extravagant) in a nice neighbourhood (also not extravagant) with a good reliable car with a good enough financial income to be able to securely provide for a family and provide a good life.

I don’t see that being unrealistic, isn’t that what everybody wants?

If that kind of life is considered extravagant and unrealistic and extreme than the western world has an extreme societal problem.

I don’t care if I never own a Ferrari, but I’d like to be secure enough to where I could.

 

[PDW]

Yeah my biggest fundamental financial mistake that I made from the age of 18 to now (36) was having an expectation that a day job/career would allow me enough income to live the life I want to live and allow me to buy equipment to start my own business so that I can create my own legacy.

When I say “life I want to live” there is nothing extreme about it. For lack of a better description I want that traditional 1950’s American dream. Nice house (not extravagant) in a nice neighbourhood (also not extravagant) with a good reliable car with a good enough financial income to be able to securely provide for a family and provide a good life.

I don’t see that being unrealistic, isn’t that what everybody wants?

If that kind of life is considered extravagant and unrealistic and extreme than the western world has an extreme societal problem.

I don’t care if I never own a Ferrari, but I’d like to be secure enough to where I could.

It appears to be unrealistic in the 21C, yes.

I changed professions when I figured out the first one was fun but it was never going to pay well. You may want to consider that.

From an employer's POV, why pay more for skilled labour than they have to? It's often easier to just outsource manufacturing and stop dealing with the aggravation.

I get that you want what you want but the world doesn't care, employers don't care and even most of your fellow workers don't care. It's up to you to change what you do.

PDW

 

[William Payne]

It appears to be unrealistic in the 21C, yes.

I changed professions when I figured out the first one was fun but it was never going to pay well. You may want to consider that.

From an employer's POV, why pay more for skilled labour than they have to? It's often easier to just outsource manufacturing and stop dealing with the aggravation.

I get that you want what you want but the world doesn't care, employers don't care and even most of your fellow workers don't care. It's up to you to change what you do.

PDW

I agree completely. Your post is basically the point I was trying to get across.

In fact you bring up an interesting thing that is often in my mind. I see many people going down some odd niche route in a small business. They are usually emotionally invested and driven rather than economically driven. I always ask myself when I see people doing certain jobs how much money they are actually making? and how viable it truly is?

I imagine there are many small business owners who won’t admit that what they are doing isn’t viable due to some emotional attachment they have for what they are doing.

 

[john.k]

Fortunately???....I never had any capital to consume............I went out on my own with a home made arc welder powered by a Ford 10 hp motor ,and a set of tools that cost $40 ,all in the back of an old International truck.....I was very frequently told that I wasnt making wages ,but was completely undeterred.