Advice for New Large Machine Selection

[Millms]

This is NOT hard..
Take your biggest common part, and send it to your top 3 machine builders to machine.
Send your machinists to observe/learn, on each control.
Expect 1 week with each machine- basically so your machinists can learn how to do that particular part with those particular tools.

After this, Your machinists will be much more comfortable with cnc, and will have an opinion on which machine is best suited and perhaps which is not.

This would be ideal, due to having barely enough machinists to keep this place running its hard to lose a guy for even a day. Maybe if they can at least take a video of them working the machine that might help. I will look into this though thanks. Also how would you go about finding a retired machinist to do something like this? Could the manufacturers also just provide training? Not sure if the company would go for hiring some random dudes for training even if they're master machinists due to insurance requirements.

 

[empower]

English hell, it's so simple I think I can do it in chinese ...

你们为什么这么容易上当受骗 ？他买不到一碗米饭。 他是看门人。 这太傻了。

Ha ! Only needed help with a couple of the harder words .... not too bad for a beginner.

This is your captain speaking, I'll be flying 747's by the end of the week

you're doing your gibberish thing again. none of what you said made a lick of sense.

 

[2outof3]

I come from a maintenance background and was steered towards the machine shop. I will be honest I don't know much about machining and rely on my guys. I am more managing than engineering in the shop and have only been here a short time, trying to learn between all the other BS I have to do. Thanks for the input though.

In most large machine shops, maintenance is involved in these purchases. Buy the right machine and it is a twenty to thirty year every day production machine.

 

[Houdini]

We have a mazak here (bought in the 90s our newest machine) so I was looking at them too. They're a little smaller than I would like to replace the current machines. We do lineshafts up to 23' and rack driven bars that long as well. If they were more open bed I guess we could hang them off... but with how much is hanging off I wouldn't trust it not to mess up the machine the bars are pretty heavy. CAM is probably further down the road for us. My idea is to be able to use the machine for the jobs we do which is mostly modifying parts currently, and slowly start to bring back making parts from stock material with CAM. Just have it start spitting out selected parts that will save us the most money at first and expand from there.

I mention Mazak because they have one of everything, and some large machines, and probably one of the best conversational(even though I would use CAM)
and the Versatach has a 36' X at the largest one, there are others.

if the price is right, I would much rather have that rotating head.

Also you say you have manual guys, CNC is kinda done differently, you don't have the big heavy, rigid, powerful machines anymore.
They are lighter, faster, and have totally different machining strategies to speed up the process, and increase tool life.
Just to mention encase you or your manual guys aren't familiar that CNC machining is different.

Versatech 440"

2 cents

 

[2outof3]

This would be ideal, due to having barely enough machinists to keep this place running its hard to lose a guy for even a day. Maybe if they can at least take a video of them working the machine that might help. I will look into this though thanks. Also how would you go about finding a retired machinist to do something like this? Could the manufacturers also just provide training? Not sure if the company would go for hiring some random dudes for training even if they're master machinists due to insurance requirements.

Parts are kind of big to just ship about if they are being machined on an old G&L.
Lots of good videos are available from the best builders. videos are linked to the link below.

Nidec MVR Ex Series | Yamazen

Nidec has taken their best selling MVR series, already known for its powerful, heavy-cutting, right-angle head and rigid square RAM vertical spindle, and upgraded it with an internally cooled spindle and thermostabilized columns as standard equipment.

www.yamazen.com

 

[Comatose]

If you're shorthanded on machinists AND you don't have anyone to program, the solution seems obvious. Hire a guy who knows how to program.

A $500k machine with a skilled programmer/operator will outproduce a $1,000,000 machine where someone close to retirement who has to learn it from scratch every single day. The $500k difference will pay for that guy for 5 years, probably. The increased output will pay for the guy, too, but the former might be easier to sell to your bosses.

A computer for programming doesn't even have to be on any network. It could be a laptop. It could be a laptop you purchase as an "accessory" with the machine. I'm sure for some markup the machine builder will preconfigure a computer and set up a post for your machine. Then your IT doesn't have to get involved at all.

 

[hanermo]

This would be ideal, due to having barely enough machinists to keep this place running its hard to lose a guy for even a day. Maybe if they can at least take a video of them working the machine that might help. I will look into this though thanks. Also how would you go about finding a retired machinist to do something like this? Could the manufacturers also just provide training? Not sure if the company would go for hiring some random dudes for training even if they're master machinists due to insurance requirements.

What ?
An error may cost 100.000$ in stuff, and a 2 month breakdown, and You are worried about 1 guy off for one day ???
It´s potentially losing contracts and clients worth 100s or millions, for silly little 5k costs.

IF You really need the guys working 5x, which may be the case, for 3k$/wk endless qualified temps with 20+ year experience exist.
With 1 week experience, these highly qualified temps will keep the machines running while your guys go look at the new stuff.
3 weeks, 1 week assimilation and 3 weeks work, 12k$ .. a bargain avoiding a mistake in a 500.000 $ purchase.

AND it is very very likely these temps and your guys relationships-building for a week with the machine tool supplier will net You more than 12.000$ in discounts.

It´s a business, not a fruit market stall.
You do not want the cheapest choice, nor the last or best salesmans offering.

Get YOUR guys into trying the machines, even if you have to fly them wherever.
It´s VASTLY cheaper than the typical errors that happen.
Yes, I know, You won´t listen, Your bosses won´t listen.

No-one will spend a dime - but will spend a 500k$ mistake with a 200k$ extra budget that finally does not work well.
Seen it lots of times.

At Spain Haas/Hitec I no-quoted several customer projects.
Simply because we thought // knew / expected they would not work.
Often explaining to the customers why their wishes were unrealistic.
And sometimes refusing to sell 500k$ in tooling "guaranteed" by a major manufacturer to do what the client wanted.
"Listen, this wont work well and reliably, and we don´t want to sell this."

Almost-all customers were very happy to see where the weak spots were.

Get YOUR guys to make the parts on the machines in question.
It will save you gazillions in the long run.

 

[Houdini]

As any of us will probably say, your better off hiring a CNC guy to run/program that machine, and he can train the others.

 

[Micmac1]

Wonder what a SMART SW623 would run cost wise compared to those options.....saw a flyer recently only reason i brought it up. Has a Fanuc which could be optioned with manual guide i, I personally would think cam would be the right solution here. That said i have zero experience with bridge mills so not a reccomandion.

 

[Speedie]

Its weird to throw this out there but they build some zimmerman. Pratic-cnc Its a chinese company but they build some giganticly long 50 taper cncs

 

[Donkey Hotey]

Find another job. The place you're working is so beyond broken I don't even know where to start. It's like people who think computers are a fad and going to go away or something.

Machinists who don't even have access to computers? Gigantic parts that cost dump trucks full of money if something is scrapped and still doing things by hand? Nobody knows CAM? Probably doesn't pay worth a crap but, also can't spare one of the machinists for a week to witness a giant purchase that will affect the health of the company for the next twenty years?

The entire thing (process, maybe management, and all) needs a complete overhaul. No incremental improvement is going to save the place now. Please share my post with your management. If they aren't scared shitless about the situation, they don't have a clue what's going on.

 

[Houdini]

Find another job. The place you're working is so beyond broken I don't even know where to start. It's like people who think computers are a fad and going to go away or something.

Machinists who don't even have access to computers? Gigantic parts that cost dump trucks full of money if something is scrapped and still doing things by hand? Nobody knows CAM? Probably doesn't pay worth a crap but, also can't spare one of the machinists for a week to witness a giant purchase that will affect the health of the company for the next twenty years?

The entire thing (process, maybe management, and all) needs a complete overhaul. No incremental improvement is going to save the place now. Please share my post with your management. If they aren't scared shitless about the situation, they don't have a clue what's going on.

Gotta wonder when we see threads like this if the places actually buy the machines, I think not.

Also they are so far behind, and want to take baby steps just to get to the 80's.

You gotta wonder if the machine just sit's there until they get rid of it, like our Alaskan mentor.

My neighbor is a 40 year machinist, working for one of these places that do the giant stuff, everything is either forklift, overhead crane, or he said they even have some gigantic heavy weight crane also, YUK.
bunch of manual stuff, and they bought a large 5 axis, he said it just sits there, no one knows how to use it.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

The problem with the entire world is bandwidth. Take whoever is probably running the OP's company. They are probably mid-50s at least. That means they left college in the mid 1980s. Even if they were a mechanical engineering major and they were taught the very cutting edge of manufacturing (both highly unlikely) the last thing they saw was CNCs fed by tape readers or maybe RS232. Even 3.5" floppy drives were on the horizon.

And if they're like the management I worked for, they either had other business aspects they needed to focus their future learning on, or they never did another damned thing with regards to staying current on learning anything. Maybe a pay-your-fee-get-a-B MBA night program and that was it..

What this means is that almost anyone in a senior management role at a company like that, is probably the absolute least qualified person to be making these determinations. Add in a dose of their own personal ego and belief that they know what's going on and they're the expert and you get what we have here. They won't trust an underling to give them an uncensored and honest evaluation and then act on those recommendations.

I used to show senior level design engineers some of the Haas marketing videos, doing extremely common and boring machining operations. They thought all the coolant on the windows and spraying chips was unnecessary parlor tricks. Nobody really machines like that. It's all Bridgeports with power feeds, or giant bridge mills chugging along at 500 RPM and 10 IPM for weeks on end. And they firmly believed that they knew and understood the way parts are made. You couldn't convince them otherwise.

 

[Overland]

This would be ideal, due to having barely enough machinists to keep this place running its hard to lose a guy for even a day. Maybe if they can at least take a video of them working the machine that might help. I will look into this though thanks. Also how would you go about finding a retired machinist to do something like this? Could the manufacturers also just provide training? Not sure if the company would go for hiring some random dudes for training even if they're master machinists due to insurance requirements.

Jake,
Where are you ? That might help some folk on here to help you.
So it looks like you've identified a serious problem within your operation, but you don't personally have the skills to fix it.
Does your management recognize there is a problem ?
When I was working we would make sure we identified the problem clearly, before we attempted to fix it.
In your case I'm thinking a very clear problem definition would be a great starting point, before you start looking for solutions. Also you need to make sure your management hierarchy recognizes the complete problem, and gives you the resources to solve it.
Seems to me you have several problems:
- Old worn out machinery. Define this more completely. Do the machines work, can you achieve what you are trying to do, are you spending money elsewhere that could be done cheaper in house, etc ?
- Labor shortage. Do you have difficulty hiring - why ? Are your people about to retire, etc. Do they have the required skills, etc.
- Ability for your maintenance shop to meets the needs of the organization, in a cost effective manner, etc.
When you have a clear "Problem Definition", present it to your management with a plan of what you need to do - not a solution at this stage.
Bench-marking other organizations is a powerful way to gain knowledge. Machine builders should help introduce you to other organizations doing similar work or having similar needs.
Maybe you put together a small team with yourself, one of the machinists and maybe even a retired person or some other "consultant". There are ways in any organization to find temporary help.
You need to put resources into this problem if you want to get a good outcome.
Bob

 

[Houdini]

The problem with the entire world is bandwidth. Take whoever is probably running the OP's company. They are probably mid-50s at least. That means they left college in the mid 1980s. Even if they were a mechanical engineering major and they were taught the very cutting edge of manufacturing (both highly unlikely) the last thing they saw was CNCs fed by tape readers or maybe RS232. Even 3.5" floppy drives were on the horizon.

And if they're like the management I worked for, they either had other business aspects they needed to focus their future learning on, or they never did another damned thing with regards to staying current on learning anything. Maybe a pay-your-fee-get-a-B MBA night program and that was it..

What this means is that almost anyone in a senior management role at a company like that, is probably the absolute least qualified person to be making these determinations. Add in a dose of their own personal ego and belief that they know what's going on and they're the expert and you get what we have here. They won't trust an underling to give them an uncensored and honest evaluation and then act on those recommendations.

I used to show senior level design engineers some of the Haas marketing videos, doing extremely common and boring machining operations. They thought all the coolant on the windows and spraying chips was unnecessary parlor tricks. Nobody really machines like that. It's all Bridgeports with power feeds, or giant bridge mills chugging along at 500 RPM and 10 IPM for weeks on end. And they firmly believed that they knew and understood the way parts are made. You couldn't convince them otherwise.

Last place I worked for the owner understood this, but only after hiring a me, who was like you know blah blah blah,
this is more profitable, here's the numbers.
This is more efficient, here's the numbers.......

Eventually they tried one of my recommendations, then it was on like Donkey Kong, they let me change what ever I wanted.
The norm idea was "what ever he says, do it"

In the end the owner said I increased their work load and profits over 30%, on a 35 year old business.

 

[EmGo]

I used to show senior level design engineers some of the Haas marketing videos, doing extremely common and boring machining operations. They thought all the coolant on the windows and spraying chips was unnecessary parlor tricks. Nobody really machines like that. It's all Bridgeports with power feeds, or giant bridge mills chugging along at 500 RPM and 10 IPM for weeks on end.

I don't know where you find these people but it'd explain why you have some weird ideas, or why the US is so far out of it now. In the seventies and eighties Ingersolls had multiple 125 horse spindles throwing chips so hard the biggest problems places had were shovellng those things into the (what's the name for those things that are as big as dumpsters but they are for holding chips ? brain failure). K&T was running fms'es flat out with adaptive control in the mid-seventies, keeping track of redundant tools, multiple parts on multiple pallets for assemblies, cells, all sorts of factory informational feedback, there ain't shit out there now that wasn't around in 1975. Not a single fucking thing.

If you've lost all that, might explain why the US brings up hind tit in manufacturing everything, including commercial aircraft.

It sure as hell is not how life was in 1980. People had a clue back then.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

I don't know where you find these people but it'd explain why you have some weird ideas, or why the US is so far out of it now.

Hundreds and hundreds of them. Maybe thousands. People who get it were absolutely the exception, even when I left four years ago. Maybe 1 in 10 mechanical engineers had any clue what a 20 year old Haas could do. I spent 25 years shouting it from the rooftops and was dismissed by manufacturing managers who also didn't get it.

 

[Millms]

Jake,
Where are you ? That might help some folk on here to help you.
So it looks like you've identified a serious problem within your operation, but you don't personally have the skills to fix it.
Does your management recognize there is a problem ?
When I was working we would make sure we identified the problem clearly, before we attempted to fix it.
In your case I'm thinking a very clear problem definition would be a great starting point, before you start looking for solutions. Also you need to make sure your management hierarchy recognizes the complete problem, and gives you the resources to solve it.
Seems to me you have several problems:
- Old worn out machinery. Define this more completely. Do the machines work, can you achieve what you are trying to do, are you spending money elsewhere that could be done cheaper in house, etc ?
- Labor shortage. Do you have difficulty hiring - why ? Are your people about to retire, etc. Do they have the required skills, etc.
- Ability for your maintenance shop to meets the needs of the organization, in a cost effective manner, etc.
When you have a clear "Problem Definition", present it to your management with a plan of what you need to do - not a solution at this stage.
Bench-marking other organizations is a powerful way to gain knowledge. Machine builders should help introduce you to other organizations doing similar work or having similar needs.
Maybe you put together a small team with yourself, one of the machinists and maybe even a retired person or some other "consultant". There are ways in any organization to find temporary help.
You need to put resources into this problem if you want to get a good outcome.
Bob

I am in the USA East Coast, do not want to give out too much of the specifics on the location. But we are a support machine shop for a production facility. There is a plethora of problems I believe and so much we could do if we had the right equipment even with the miniscule work force we have. Lack of future planning is a big one. Seems like we wait until something drops dead to think about upgrading then we will be up shit creek waiting for a machine.

Management has only started to be aware of issues since I came here last year, before the shop would just say everything is all good and we need nothing.

Our machinery can get the job done good enough (most the time), but takes ages setting up and dealing with the quirks of the machinery. Most machines are missing speeds, spindles are super sloppy, overall hard to get good finishes an hold tolerances especially for new age machinists who would come in here. Everything we use daily is from around the 60s and has been in the shop since then and a bit neglected. Tooling is not managed well and I am trying to fix that too. Our only bigger Mazak CNC has been down for years and I just got it running within a couple months of being here.

There also is a few reasons its hard to hire, the pay is alright, but they get profit sharing and quarterly bonuses that makeup for it. Benefits are top notch and I feel like younger guys don't weigh that as much as cash. We used to have 40 guys now down to 9, they would retire and we never backfilled. Now we are having 2 more retiring by years end and just now the company decided to start trying to do apprenticeships and other things to help the shop. We tie up our good machinists doing bull work to support the plant as well so that isn't always desirable to machinists. Other factors I probably will not mention, but its an interpersonal issue.

Thanks for the insight, very helpful. I will try to focus on one issue at a time, if I tried to do them all at once it would be a mammoth undertaking.

 

[Millms]

What ?
An error may cost 100.000$ in stuff, and a 2 month breakdown, and You are worried about 1 guy off for one day ???
It´s potentially losing contracts and clients worth 100s or millions, for silly little 5k costs.

IF You really need the guys working 5x, which may be the case, for 3k$/wk endless qualified temps with 20+ year experience exist.
With 1 week experience, these highly qualified temps will keep the machines running while your guys go look at the new stuff.
3 weeks, 1 week assimilation and 3 weeks work, 12k$ .. a bargain avoiding a mistake in a 500.000 $ purchase.

AND it is very very likely these temps and your guys relationships-building for a week with the machine tool supplier will net You more than 12.000$ in discounts.

It´s a business, not a fruit market stall.
You do not want the cheapest choice, nor the last or best salesmans offering.

Get YOUR guys into trying the machines, even if you have to fly them wherever.
It´s VASTLY cheaper than the typical errors that happen.
Yes, I know, You won´t listen, Your bosses won´t listen.

No-one will spend a dime - but will spend a 500k$ mistake with a 200k$ extra budget that finally does not work well.
Seen it lots of times.

At Spain Haas/Hitec I no-quoted several customer projects.
Simply because we thought // knew / expected they would not work.
Often explaining to the customers why their wishes were unrealistic.
And sometimes refusing to sell 500k$ in tooling "guaranteed" by a major manufacturer to do what the client wanted.
"Listen, this wont work well and reliably, and we don´t want to sell this."

Almost-all customers were very happy to see where the weak spots were.

Get YOUR guys to make the parts on the machines in question.
It will save you gazillions in the long run.

It is not me who is limiting the ability to send for training, its just the powers above. We have no contracts strictly work supporting our facility. But I agree with everything you're saying last thing I want is to ruin the machine after rationalizing it to management. I just don't have any power to make those calls, and my luck the week we send a couple guys out the place shuts down for an emergency repair. Maybe weekends could work slowly rotating who can go. We are working with 8 guys in a huge shop so sparing 2 at a time would be the most we could do.

Hell apparently with some new tiny mills we bought training years ago before me, but never called them in. So only a couple guys can use it from past experience. A bit ridiculous we are so resistant to change.

Thanks for the input though maybe I can hammer it into management's brain do not want to make an expensive mistake that can be avoided.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

Okay, this is going to hurt to type out but, here goes just the start of what I see wrong.

Skills: there are two types of machinists. Broadly defined, there are manual machinists and CNC machinists. Sometimes, manual machinists have the knack for computers and CAD software and whatever. Other times, they don't. We get into lots of arguments around here about who does what but, it comes down to those two categories. To really thrive with CNC technology, you need someone with CAD skills. In my opinion, the better they are with the CAD skills, the better everything else downstream is going to go.

What you need for the future is some shit-hot, whiz-bang young to mid career guys who really think through problems and know how to use modern CAM software. They won't be cheap and they shouldn't be but, that's what you need. CNC methods aren't the same as manual machining. Setups aren't the same. Techniques that are possible with CNC are completely foreign and new to someone who's never done it.

But the bottom line is: you need those skills to bridge your company into the current market, much less prepare for the future. If you get one of them sitting in front of you for an interview, they will and should run out the door like the building is on fire. There is nothing at all about what your company is offering that would make that guy want to work there for a single week.

Management: you need management of those employees who understands what the needed skills are and who they need to attract and retain. Chances are really good that the current management ain't it or things wouldn't be the way they are. Your shop really needs to be run and staffed by talented manufacturing engineers. That word is key: talented. Not any old manufacturing engineer. It has to be someone with vision for how this is all going to run.

Existing staff: you can try to cross train existing employees into learning the CAD and CAM side of things. Conversational programming isn't going to get you there, even as a transition. Conversational is handy when you're doing a very simple operation but, it's no replacement for using CAM software. It's just too different. CAM is not simple profile of a part and monkeying with ten offsets in the control to make it do incremental cutter paths to a finished profile. All of that is magic tricks from 30 years ago, pre-CAM. It can't be used as a substitute in a modern shop.

Every one of these things that management tries to avoid or step over to ease into things, will only prolong the transition by decades. I can't believe we're even having this discussion in 2024 but, here we are.

Example: you try to make due with existing machinists. They're completely computer phobic and don't have an innate knack for Fusion 360, Solidworks or some other CAD system. You're already dead and you don't know it. No, training probably won't save those employees. If they aren't going out of their mind from the stupidity of working there, they're probably perfectly happy twirling cranks and aren't good candidates for where you need to be.

I'm not saying to fire all your existing people. If they know how the plant maintenance takes place, or how other processes work, there are probably a dozen roles for them. Maybe they do the planning for maintenance processes while the new guys pick up the actual programming and machining. Maybe they're getting close to retirement anyway and you can have them mentoring. Whatever it is, you don't want a shop full of computer-phobic employees dragging down the whole operation for the next 10-15 years.