DS&G lathe

[Welderwill]

Hello fellow machinists, need a bit of advice concerning a DSG lathe I’m offered for a bit of machining as payment, current owners have no idea about it, was left on site when they bought the property said it’s probably hasn’t run for 10 to 15 years was always inside in a warm shop, it’s a type 18, seems to me there not too much noise online about the type 18 DSG, it looks fairly rough and dirty where it’s sitting now not sure of condition looked at it once and I noticed there was a fair amount of play in cross slide and compound screws, everything seemed to be moving freely I never checked anything machine is under power I’m going there again soon to evaluate condition bed wear and so on, I understand the last guy to operate it yes and old gentleman that is in ailing health and said it worked fine when he used to 15 years ago, it is basically just about free so I need to decide if I’m interested must have around 9 to 10,000 pounds, bed seemed around 8 feet, my biggest concern is bad wear and top slide wear;how much is too much?? Can anyone comment on how old this machine is,will post a few pictures of what I do have so far the machine has a four jaw, three jaw , taper attachment, steady, follow rest and a bit of tooling

 

[Cole2534]

I don't know anything about DS&G's, but one trick to getting an age range is to look at all the data plates on the machine and trying to find the latest patent date.

 

[implmex]

Hi Welderwill:
The only DSG I ever ran was an absolute beast...ideal if you wanted to remove a lot of material from big stuff.
I liked it for the bigger mold components I was making at the time but I found it clumsy to use on small stuff.

If your PM name is an accurate reflection of what you do for a living you may find something like this ideal for your needs...a fab shop with a decent lathe can do a lot with it and attract work that is unavailable to others who don't have one.

Is it still powered up and running or do you have to guess at that part?
If it is, check that all the gears still work, and don't get too fussed by the small stuff, like the amount of dirt on it and the backlash in the slides...those are comparatively easy to fix.
Ditto for the ways...while it's desirable for them to be pristine if you want to do very accurate work on the machine, you can still do a lot with a worn one, and if this thing is essentially free it's going to have to be in hopeless condition for it to be a net loss for your shop (assuming you have no other lathe).

So I'd probably grab it if you can make the space for it, and then decide just how much work I'd be willing to put into it to bring it back into shape.
If you were to restore it to new condition, the right kind of shop would pay well for it because nobody really makes good stout manual lathes anymore even though repair and maintenance shops still use them a lot.
DSG was a very good and well respected brand in its time, so it's not like you'd be putting lipstick on a pig if you put some work into it.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[morsetaper2]

If that one photo that has a plate that says... "Machine No 30251", is the actual s/n. It would place that machine about middle of 1956 by my metalworking machine s/n book. Usually s/n's are stamped into the bed/main casting of a machine. Rather than a plate that is easily removed.

 

[Clive603]

Check the spindle nose and chuck fitting. If it is 1956 it may well have the DSG "Fastlock" system so chuck and backplate mounts will be hard to come by. After 1960 DSG used the common D1- series cam-lock system so finding chucks if need be is relatively easy although the large sizes involved make them less common than the smaller D1- 3, 4 & 6. Not sure when the changeover from Fastlock to D1- cam lock occurred beyond sometime in the (later?) 1950s.

A decent, ideally new, chuck makes life so much easier. I've always been willing to fork out when needed even if the one on an older machine is still OK (ish). Can';t be doing with the faffing around needed to get reliable, repeatable work holding from a well used chuck.

Clive

 

[Welderwill]

thanks for replying, i figured it might be somewhere in the fifties,There is power hooked to it and im planning to run by next week when the owner gets back into the country and do a evaluation of all mechanical functions and wear on sliding surfaces,will let you know what i found, might need more info

 

[Welderwill]

thanks for mentioning the fastlock system clive, shall check it out,

 

[dutchgray]

Check the spindle nose and chuck fitting. If it is 1956 it may well have the DSG "Fastlock" system so chuck and backplate mounts will be hard to come by. After 1960 DSG used the common D1- series cam-lock system so finding chucks if need be is relatively easy although the large sizes involved make them less common than the smaller D1- 3, 4 & 6. Not sure when the changeover from Fastlock to D1- cam lock occurred beyond sometime in the (later?) 1950s.

A decent, ideally new, chuck makes life so much easier. I've always been willing to fork out when needed even if the one on an older machine is still OK (ish). Can';t be doing with the faffing around needed to get reliable, repeatable work holding from a well used chuck.

Clive

From what I have found "Fastlock" to "Camlock" change over was mid 50's, my 1957 (Machine No 31392 8-57) 13-1 is a camlock.
Fast locks have 4 locks, Camlocks have 6.

That one has the earlier threading gearbox, you need change gears to do metric pitches, the translation isn't built in as on later machines, spare change gears should be under that gear cover, I don't believe you can do the direct setting either where the box isn't used and the pitch is done with just change gears.

It has oil view ports on the headstock and threading gearbox, ensure you can see oil flow in the headstock one before engaging the clutch, if its not been run in many years the very expensive bearings will be dry, the oil pump like to drop their prime if they haven't been used for an extended period, the headstock pump can be accessed to prime by removing the top cover, it should be at the right side in the rear, you will likely need an oil gun to prime it.

The threading gearbox pump should be external under the change gear cover and will obviously only run when the spindle is turning, this one is much less critical to be working when testing the lathe.

They use a bolt fastened block to lock out reverse gear, located behind the base of the clutch lever, headstock end, if you can't get reverse this will likely be why, the lathe should be lever up for forward, down for reverse, this is the reverse of what is common and its not that unusual to see DS&G lathes wired backwards.

 

[jpt2go]

Your lathe appears to essentially be a very close cousin to a 1960 DSG Type 17 lathe that I have. Mine has a DSG “Totally Enclosed Gearbox” that is the same generation as the one you show. This replaced the “Multi-Change Gearbox” that was in previous versions. Mine takes D1-8 Camlock chucks, and I believe yours will use Camlock chucks too but, as others have said, you can check this easily. It's important because it affects the cost and availability of chucks you may be interested in replacing.

Your last photo is the Change Gear cover with the “Screw Pitches in Inches” table. It shows your Type 18 at the top left and Type 21 at the top right. In contrast, my cover shows Type 15 and 17 at the top left and Type 20 S.B. at the top right. I believe that the Type 15, 17 and 20 S.B. were all much smaller than your Type 18 and its Type 21 sister. So it’s not just a single inch of increased swing capability that your Type 18 has, relative to mine. As an indication, mine has a 10 hp motor, and I'm guessing yours will be larger (perhaps 15 hp?).

The maximum spindle speed of mine is 1235 RPM. You can get this for your specific Type 18 very quickly by reading the speeds off the speed dial that you showed one side of in Photo 1. It’s very important to know this if you are planning to use the lathe for small diameter projects.

 

[ken moss]

Dean Smith & Grace Lathes

Dean Smith & Grace, founded in 1865, have a formidable reputation in the field of high-quality machine tools. More than once their products have been called the "Rolls-Royce" of lathes - being beautifully made, from superior materials, and to a carefully

www.lathes.co.uk

 

[Rob F.]

It sure seems that unless it is boat anchor material you just need to grab it and do whatever machining they want.
Just clean it well and dont get fab shop grit all over it and you should be fine with it.
Like dutchgray mentioned above, pay close attention to priming the oil pump before turning it on, it would be a shame to ruin the spindle bearings just checking the gears worked by running them dry....
They probably still have a bunch of misc tooling that was used with it as well, be sure to look and ask them about it.

 

[M. Moore]

If you have room for a lathe that size and it is “essentially” free then grab it right away.
Lots of info in the DSG thread……

 

[Welderwill]

thanks for all the informative replies,Digging into online info, tony lathe uk is one heck of a info source, i will probably in any case drag it home somehow,The current owners have absolutely no idea about machining and are eager to get it out of their sight so that's to my advantage,they're actually pushing me to remove it from their property cause they could use the space.First step is to do a full evaluation of machine before i dive into moving such a huge mass of steel, im guessing at least 9000 pounds?

 

[Limy Sami]

For a DS&G that size, work on 5 long tons (oops, showing my age again) , 11,200 lbs, and you should have a bit of leeway.

 

[Welderwill]

ooohhh, didnt plan on it being that heavy , will need to start planning on how to move that thing.I have a buddy that can move it, will have to start being really nice to him,lol.i guess i'll need to confirm bed lenght to get a more ball parkish number on the weight.

 

[Blazemaster]

I found this

Dean Smith & Grace Type 18 x 96 Lathe

www.cottandco.com

and this

https://www.amazon.com/Smith-Grace-Lathe-Operations-Manual/dp/B00FOCV5UI

That looks like a nice machine, go get it and clean it up. I would guess 10-12k lbs

 

[M. Moore]

The nice thing about DSG’s is that they were usually planed on the bottom so rolling on pipes is pretty easy.
I rolled my 5000lb’er into my shop by myself. There are usually holes through the casting at the headstock for a solid bar to lift the machine. Back end is slung through the ways. Bar should be close to hole size.

One common problem with a lot of these is that previous owner(s) used grease to lube the machine instead of oil. So expect to spend some time cleaning out old grease so that oil can flow properly as required.
Usually the oiler supplied by DSG is long gone and the oil nipples do kind of look like grease fittings. Why so many lathe owners thought grease would be a good idea is hard to fathom.

 

[M. Moore]

I just looked at the link from Blaze, you can see the hole in the headstock next to the 18x96 numbers.
Also with that size machine it has a different base that may not work for rolling like the all cast base on many smaller sizes.
Hopefully yours has the drilling attachment which is a very sweet accessory. I have no idea what that big round MeTool box is at the footstock? Power line to the carriage?

 

[dutchgray]

Have had a look in my document stash and found a 1964 DSG catalogue, it lists the 18" with 48" between centres at 8288 lbs or 3759 kg
Nothing stated on what to add for increased bed lengths however.

Got some nice specs though, swings 20" over the bed, 10" over the saddle with the guard on, 3 5/8" spindle bore, mt5 centres, 12.5 or 15hp motors. 3 speed ranges of which the highest is 10 to 800 rpm.

 

[dutchgray]

The nice thing about DSG’s is that they were usually planed on the bottom so rolling on pipes is pretty easy.
I rolled my 5000lb’er into my shop by myself. There are usually holes through the casting at the headstock for a solid bar to lift the machine. Back end is slung through the ways. Bar should be close to hole size.

One common problem with a lot of these is that previous owner(s) used grease to lube the machine instead of oil. So expect to spend some time cleaning out old grease so that oil can flow properly as required.
Usually the oiler supplied by DSG is long gone and the oil nipples do kind of look like grease fittings. Why so many lathe owners thought grease would be a good idea is hard to fathom.

This was the case with my 13-1, saddle, apron, tailstock all stuffed full of grease, had to strip apart and clean it all out. I doubt it was the owners who were putting the grease in them.

I have moved both of my 13" DSG lathes by myself, put 3 Darvic skates under them and you can get them rolling just by pushing hard.