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How much do you value your employees educating themselves on their job and above and beyond.

William Payne

Cast Iron
Joined
May 29, 2016
Location
Wanganui, New Zealand
This is something I have been thinking about, I work in tool and die and as an employee and engineering enthusiast in general I place a lot of importance on the more I can learn the more I can do, the more I offer my employer. It is a two way street in that the employer sometimes depending on the task needs to allow the employee to learn different tasks.

I’d love to hear employer/managerial feed back on this type of thing.

For me out of personal interest I enjoy learning about machining methods, tooling methods, material science, design, manufacturing, basically everything.

I guess for me while I don’t have a degree I feel as as tool and die worker I want to be on the level knowledge wise as any top mechanical engineer but with the practical experience of a good top tool and die maker/machinist.
 
You won't likely get anywhere near all around top level without working in that particular field. You can possibly get to "competent." You can probably get to top-level knowledge in certain specific areas of other fields besides your own if you spend a lot of time reading and teaching yourself/trying practical applications and experimentation. That's if you're mentally capable. Many people are not. It does take time, and a lot of it.
 
I’m unsure of the motivation here. If you’re looking to be recognized for your additional knowledge, your employer will not care. If you’re looking for a higher salary, without formal credentials, your employer will not care.

If you’re legitimately hungry for knowledge, good for you. It’s a worthwhile pursuit. As far as being in T&D and wanting to know more about the engineering, I’d brush up on beam calcs and stress/strain. The reasons why die shoes/inserts are the thicknesses they are. Strength of materials, why fasteners are the sizes/dims they are and how to select given design parameters. Mech eng’s are generally terrible a metallurgy and surface chemistry, if knowing anything at all. You could delve into those fields to be more well-rounded.
 
The important part is the certificate saying you are registered as an engineer in the state........thats what an employer needs ,and what he pays engineer money for.......dont really matter if you are good bad or indifferent when you have the licence to practice.
 
The important part is the certificate saying you are registered as an engineer in the state........thats what an employer needs ,and what he pays engineer money for.......dont really matter if you are good bad or indifferent when you have the licence to practice.

Yeah I just wanted to here what employers thought about their workers upskilling themselves beyond what is required.

Thankfully my boss has never cared much about pieces of paper but rather what people can and can’t do.
 
I think it is very good to strive for better education in your skill, and higher skills like engineering, often you can get free trade magazines just for the asking,

So many guys are content to play phone games or viedos waiting for the machine to cycle the next part. Enough time to home school a new job title.
 
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The important part is the certificate saying you are registered as an engineer in the state........thats what an employer needs ,and what he pays engineer money for.......dont really matter if you are good bad or indifferent when you have the licence to practice.

I definitely do not agree with that. It matters very much, in point of fact. If an engineer is bad or indifferent they will likely lose that license due to incompetence or life-ending mistakes. That is a very bad sentiment.
 
The important part is the certificate saying you are registered as an engineer in the state........thats what an employer needs ,and what he pays engineer money for.......dont really matter if you are good bad or indifferent when you have the licence to practice.
In the US at least, Mechanical Engineers typically aren't licensed. PEs are generally for civil engineers. Nobody in the aerospace or automotive industries care if you have a PE or not.
 
Correct. I am a ME and a PE registered in Oklahoma. The PE has provided no benefit to me other than personal satisfaction. Engineers are just not thought of as a profession. We are just hired hands unlike other professions such as doctors, lawyers or even CPA's. These do have tough and useful licensing rules/laws. But anyone can call themselves an Engineer. As posted above the area I saw the most use for the PE was government employed Civil Engineers.

It was funny because when I was studying for the exam I took a refresher class at a local college. Many of the people taking the class there worked for the government and were being paid to get the PE. They asked why I was doing it since I was not getting anything from work. I said I don't really know but I took the EIT 5 years ago and hated to see that go to waste!
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Yeah I just wanted to here what employers thought about their workers upskilling themselves beyond what is required.

Thankfully my boss has never cared much about pieces of paper but rather what people can and can’t do.
Is the question employees gaining skills, or gaining pieces of paper? They aren’t necessarily the same thing.
 
Correct. I am a ME and a PE registered in Oklahoma. The PE has provided no benefit to me other than personal satisfaction. Engineers are just not thought of as a profession. We are just hired hands unlike other professions such as doctors, lawyers or even CPA's. These do have tough and useful licensing rules/laws. But anyone can call themselves an Engineer. As posted above the area I saw the most use for the PE was government employed Civil Engineers.

It was funny because when I was studying for the exam I took a refresher class at a local college. Many of the people taking the class there worked for the government and were being paid to get the PE. They asked why I was doing it since I was not getting anything from work. I said I don't really know but I took the EIT 5 years ago and hated to see that go to waste!
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I decided early on that I wanted a PE because all of my senior coworkers had one and it was important to advancement there. Of course I worked at a place where half of the business was accident reconstruction/professional witnesses work and a lot of the other half involved grant type projects where the first page of the application lists everyone’s pieces of paper.
I now carry one a PE in two states I formerly lived in. I don’t think I even have a stamp for one of the states and I’ve never used the stamp for the other state. It does make a nice paperweight though.
 
I decided early on that I wanted a PE because all of my senior coworkers had one and it was important to advancement there. Of course I worked at a place where half of the business was accident reconstruction/professional witnesses work and a lot of the other half involved grant type projects where the first page of the application lists everyone’s pieces of paper.
I now carry one a PE in two states I formerly lived in. I don’t think I even have a stamp for one of the states and I’ve never used the stamp for the other state. It does make a nice paperweight though.
Oh boy do we get into all sorts of arguments. We do PE structure work and I think people fail to realize the liability that comes with that stamp!!! People also seem to think you can "just stamp it". I guess some unethical engineers do it, but we certainly won't! Half of the education for the PE license is regarding ethical practices. I honestly don't believe the stress and liability of stamping certain things is even worth the fee we charge. People are just looking for cheap. I usually ask people "is this what you do with doctors? How much to stitch this back together? How much to fix my broken bone?"

I do agree though, hold a PE license in many cases is just a hat stuffer that means you might have a clue.
 
Any top mechanical engineer can not run a lathe or grinder as well as a top hand in that skill.
And a top-skill hand can never have all the general answers an engineer will have.

So (I want to be on the level knowledge-wise as any top mechanical engineer) can not happen.
I'd take that bet! I also know two other engineers that are just as hands on. It is VERY helpful on the floor to know every aspect of a machine and process. I don't just direct, I also do the work. I cannot fully understand and solve problems if I don't have first hand experience.
 
Oh boy do we get into all sorts of arguments. We do PE structure work and I think people fail to realize the liability that comes with that stamp!!! People also seem to think you can "just stamp it". I guess some unethical engineers do it, but we certainly won't! Half of the education for the PE license is regarding ethical practices. I honestly don't believe the stress and liability of stamping certain things is even worth the fee we charge. People are just looking for cheap. I usually ask people "is this what you do with doctors? How much to stitch this back together? How much to fix my broken bone?"

I do agree though, hold a PE license in many cases is just a hat stuffer that means you might have a clue.
I should add that I’m a mech, not civil. A large portion of my work is in safety critical systems, but my employer is more than happy to carry the liability for those things and it isn’t the sort of work that’s normally stamped in the US.
A couple times people have asked me what the seal looks like, so I’ve used the embosser on a piece of scrap paper….and promptly torn it up as soon as they’re done looking at it.
I should get around to bringing my PE to my current state just so I can stick the initials back in my email signature.
 
This is something I have been thinking about, I work in tool and die and as an employee and engineering enthusiast in general I place a lot of importance on the more I can learn the more I can do, the more I offer my employer. It is a two way street in that the employer sometimes depending on the task needs to allow the employee to learn different tasks.

I’d love to hear employer/managerial feed back on this type of thing.

For me out of personal interest I enjoy learning about machining methods, tooling methods, material science, design, manufacturing, basically everything.

I guess for me while I don’t have a degree I feel as as tool and die worker I want to be on the level knowledge wise as any top mechanical engineer but with the practical experience of a good top tool and die maker/machinist.
I hope I can help guide you. As someone that started in manufacturing while going to engineering school, I can speak on both sides of the fence pretty well. I started work building race engines and components for them. I used to get all the wrench heads asking questions and I got SO tired of pure bullshi* being spouted from these idiots. As I would explain to people, "there are a LOT of idiots out there that have ruined a lot of engines trying to port them without a single clue of understanding of how air moves!" In short, these idiots would have all these knife edges in the intake ports in SUBSONIC airflow regions. Sharper is faster, right??? LMAO.

What I am getting at is you seem to want to know the what/why, and you might learn some things, but a real engineering level core understanding means you can apply the knowledge to any other field of work!

Usually when someone is fixated on the learning, I remind them that unless you learn the basics, you cannot fully understand what is going on. If I start rattling on about "elastic and plastic deformation", you will quickly understand the concept, but you won't actually understand the why and how we select and tune an alloy to give the performance required for an application. To this point, what I tell people is this, every single book I ever used in school can be bought off the street! The only thing college is, is someone charging you an insane price to force you to read those books! No one EVER follows my advice because it is too much work. But I can assure you, reading is not the way to lock things into memory. This is why there is homework, tests, and experiments. You will know you have "the knack" when you read something new in the book, and you go buy a bunch of bolts and start doing failure testing, and proving things to yourself!

If you have good engineers in your biz, they may be quite open to helping you if they know you are in the books!!! Have well thought out questions. Don't just ask them the difference in yield and ultimate strength. learn the units we work in! Numbers are useless without units of measure.

But seems like I will be the first to commend you on an interest in learning! You are the type of guy I look for! I would say many owners don't have that mentality. they just want a job done.

let me give you a short story. I was working in a huge facility and there was an apparent problem in that they laid off the only person educated on the lock systems in the whole place! DUMB! Indication was this guy spent several days in CA on a few trips to learn how to key up locks, build cylinders, etc. Somehow or another everyone knew I was the smartest guy in the room and the question was asked, "do you think you can figure this out?" I told them IDK because I had never done any of it. They basically gave me whatever time and resources I needed as the problem needed solved. All I had was a bunch of numbers, sequences, build sheets, and fixtures to build these things. Within 24hrs I returned to the war room to enlighten that I solved it and I proved it. I was then tasked with all secure lock work for the entire facility and granted top clearance to everything.

I'm not sharing that to stroke my ego, but what happened here is 20 people in that room knew I was a guy that can figure things out. If you take the time to properly educate yourself and learn things outside your field, new opportunities will arise for you! And if you didn't know, many of the "engineers" involved with NASA during the Apollo days did NOT have degrees! They were vetted on their competence. Don't EVER let someone tell you that you can't do it because you don't have the papers. Prove them wrong!!!!
 
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I hope I can help guide you. As someone that started in manufacturing while going to engineering school, I can speak on both sides of the fence pretty well. I started work building race engines and components for them. I used to get all the wrench heads asking questions and I got SO tired of pure bullshi* being spouted from these idiots. As I would explain to people, "there are a LOT of idiots out there that have ruined a lot of engines trying to port them without a single clue of understanding of how air moves!" In short, these idiots would have all these knife edges in the intake ports in SUBSONIC airflow regions. Sharper is faster, right??? LMAO.

What I am getting at is you seem to want to know the what/why, and you might learn some things, but a real engineering level core understanding means you can apply the knowledge to any other field of work!

Usually when someone is fixated on the learning, I remind them that unless you learn the basics, you cannot fully understand what is going on. If I start rattling on about "elastic and plastic deformation", you will quickly understand the concept, but you won't actually understand the why and how we select and tune an alloy to give the performance required for an application. To this point, what I tell people is this, every single book I ever used in school can be bought off the street! The only thing college is, is someone charging you an insane price to force you to read those books! No one EVER follows my advice because it is too much work. But I can assure you, reading is not the way to lock things into memory. This is why there is homework, tests, and experiments. You will know you have "the knack" when you read something new in the book, and you go buy a bunch of bolts and start doing failure testing, and proving things to yourself!

If you have good engineers in your biz, they may be quite open to helping you if they know you are in the books!!! Have well thought out questions. Don't just ask them the difference in yield and ultimate strength. learn the units we work in! Numbers are useless without units of measure.

But seems like I will be the first to commend you on an interest in learning! You are the type of guy I look for! I would say many owners don't have that mentality. they just want a job done.

let me give you a short story. I was working in a huge facility and there was an apparent problem in that they laid off the only person educated on the lock systems in the whole place! DUMB! Indication was this guy spent several days in CA on a few trips to learn how to key up locks, build cylinders, etc. Somehow or another everyone knew I was the smartest guy in the room and the question was asked, "do you think you can figure this out?" I told them IDK because I had never done any of it. They basically gave me whatever time and resources I needed as the problem needed solved. All I had was a bunch of numbers, sequences, build sheets, and fixtures to build these things. Within 24hrs I returned to the war room to enlighten that I solved it and I proved it. I was then tasked with all secure lock work for the entire facility and granted top clearance to everything.

I'm not sharing that to stroke my ego, but what happened here is 20 people in that room knew I was a guy that can figure things out. If you take the time to properly educate yourself and learn things outside your field, new opportunities will arise for you! And if you didn't know, many of the "engineers" involved with NASA during the Apollo days did NOT have degrees! They were vetted on their competence. Don't EVER let someone tell you that you can't do it because you don't have the papers. Prove them wrong!!!!

Fantastic post and I understand exactly what you are saying. I love the head porting reference. I have encountered those same types of people.

I have always been a science geek since I was young. Even though I ironically hated school but that was because I found it limiting.

I always gravitate to those who treat what they are doing in a scientific manner. Many people do things every day but can’t tell you why.
 
May 2018 I had two employees. One was my BIL and had been with me about 2 years. The other was my Fedex guy that wanted a career change late in life, and had about 5 months with me. Production CNC mill work. "Vise operators" basically. During that month, I had a large job shut down. And, I had to let one guy go. The ugly reality of how I made that decision was: Fedex guy would shove his nose in a haas manual (even though he was actually operating a Brother) trying to learn about this trade during his idle time. Where BIL would just lean on the table and surf the internet on his phone. (I have pictures of this I reflect on when that decision weighs heavy on me!). Even though he (BIL) always told me he wanted to learn. He showed zero incentive to put any effort in to it. Even when I was trying to teach him things, it was obvious, he was not engaged. Where Fedex guy was a sponge! The learning was slow because he was not a "natural". But, he was truly engaged in his job. Many, many times, he would come at me at quitting time with that manual, and questions about what he was reading. On his time, not mine! That goes a long way with me. It is how I learned. And, sometimes we would spend hours after work where I would basically teach a class. That decision of who to let go was not hard to make! But, because one guy was family, had way more seniority, and the only strike I could give him was his phone habits, which never interfered with his responsibilities. It was a tough one to execute.
I personally put HUGE value on employees educating themselves!
This may be because it is how I learned? I got my start in a fairly large shop 30+ years ago as an operator at a "bubble haas". Nobody wanted to teach me anything! They were very immature. They wanted you to call on them for help so they felt "superior" or special, rather than teach you. So you didn't always need them. And, they could put their skills to better use elsewhere for the company. It was pathetically obvious. The shift supervisor was just as bad, so bringing it to his attention was pointless. I couldn't shove my nose in a book on the clock back then like my guy did, and still does sometimes. But, I did the exact same thing! I snuck a haas manual out in my back-pack, and studied on my time (I don't know about the newer ones, but older haas manuals are fantastic learning tools).
The guy who wants to advance himself is the guy you want!
And, if he eventually advances himself right out the door? So be it. I'm not the kind of person who would ever keep anybody down, or hold them back. For my benefit.
Because, I have worked under those people! And I wouldn't want anybody having an opinion of me, resembling the opinion I had of them.
 
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May 2018 I had two employees. One was my BIL and had been with me about 2 years. The other was my Fedex guy that wanted a career change late in life, and had about 5 months with me. Production CNC mill work. "Vise operators" basically. During that month, I had a large job shut down. And, I had to let one guy go. The ugly reality of how I made that decision was: Fedex guy would shove his nose in a haas manual (even though he was actually operating a Brother) trying to learn about this trade during his idle time. Where BIL would just lean on the table and surf the internet on his phone. (I have pictures of this I reflect on when that decision weighs heavy on me!). Even though he (BIL) always told me he wanted to learn. He showed zero incentive to put any effort in to it. Even when I was trying to teach him things, it was obvious, he was not engaged. Where Fedex guy was a sponge! The learning was slow because he was not a "natural". But, he was truly engaged in his job. Many, many times, he would come at me at quitting time with that manual, and questions about what he was reading. On his time, not mine! That goes a long way with me. It is how I learned. And, sometimes we would spend hours after work where I would basically teach a class. That decision of who to let go was not hard to make! But, because one guy was family, had way more seniority, and the only strike I could give him was his phone habits, which never interfered with his responsibilities. It was a tough one to execute.
I personally put HUGE value on employees educating themselves!
This may be because it is how I learned? I got my start in a fairly large shop 30+ years ago as an operator at a "bubble haas". Nobody wanted to teach me anything! They were very immature. They wanted you to call on them for help so they felt "superior" or special, rather than teach you. So you didn't always need them. And, they could put their skills to better use elsewhere for the company. It was pathetically obvious. The shift supervisor was just as bad, so bringing it to his attention was pointless. I couldn't shove my nose in a book on the clock back then like my guy did, and still does sometimes. But, I did the exact same thing! I snuck a haas manual out in my back-pack, and studied on my time (I don't know about the newer ones, but older haas manuals are fantastic learning tools).
The guy who wants to advance himself is the guy you want!
And, if he eventually advances himself right out the door? So be it. I'm not the kind of person who would ever keep anybody down, or hold them back. For my benefit.
Because, I have worked under those people! And I wouldn't want anybody having an opinion of me, resembling the opinion I had of them.

That is much the way I learned also. During my apprenticeship I often came in early and stayed late just to learn more and be able to ask questions. That shop was frequently running 24/7, and my relationship with the guys I was on rotation with got to the point that they would often stay late when I was following them up to help out and give pointers and come in early when following me also. I would occasionally wander the shop to other machines to ask questions about those too. It was a huge place, so I could get away with it and not cause any strife. I have fond memories of those days.

This is one of those things that I think most intelligent folks value in a coworker or employee. But there can be problems occasionally with those "superior" folks you alluded to. I once had a foreman who hated me going around asking other people questions. He'd say "If you've got a question you come to me!" At which point he'd say something like " gimme a minute, I'll be right back. " Then I'd watch him go down the bay to one of the guys I might've gone to ask so HE could ask, then report back to me. After a couple of those, I stopped asking him again. The next time he got mad about it I went to see the superintendent of the machine shop. Let's just say: after that it wasn't a problem any more. The superintendent was also VP of the company, and he definitely valued my drive and desire to learn. After a couple years working there, he made it a habit to stop by my machine and chat every time he saw me. He was an excellent source of information, having worked in the trade for probably 40+ years by then. And I assure you, I made use of the resource.
 








 
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