Deckel FP1 copy issues

[benic]

Hello,
I recently bought a Deckel FP1 copy and the first issue I have with it is with the vertical cutting head.
From what I know this copy uses Morse Taper 3 tools. In the horizontal spindle I can fit this kind of tools but I cannot fit them in the vertical spindle.

In the vertical head there is some kind of adapter which fits some collets which are similar with R8 and I cannot take out this adapter.

Any hints how I could take it out?

Thanks!

 

[thanvg]

Hello,
I recently bought a Deckel FP1 copy and the first issue I have with it is with the vertical cutting head.
From what I know this copy uses Morse Taper 3 tools. In the horizontal spindle I can fit this kind of tools but I cannot fit them in the vertical spindle.

In the vertical head there is some kind of adapter which fits some collets which are similar with R8 and I cannot take out this adapter.

Any hints how I could take it out?

Thanks!

Hi there, welcome,

a deckel FP1 copy has, mostly likely, MT4 tapers, but this is not important at the moment.

You have a MT4 to E355 adapter in your vertical spindle, so that you can use those collets you said are similar to R8 (they are, indeed).

See that external thread on your adapter? There was supposed to be a nut there, spanner nut. Install it, put the machine in low gear, put a collet in barely held with the drawbar so that your adapter won't fall down once loose (or just put a towel under the spindle) and give the nut a tap with a proper wrench. It'll pull your adapter out of your spindle.

BR,
Thanos

 

[Peter from Holland]

Looking at the machine it is in there for ages
And MT can be stubern
So good luck
Peter

 

[benic]

Hello,
I don't have the nut but I tried to tap the adapter from above, where the drawbar is inserted but with no luck.
Can heat make the adapter a bit loose?

 

[Peter from Holland]

Make a nut
Or buy one
Metric probably

 

[thanvg]

if you have a mill, you have a lathe I suppose, so just make a nut as Peter suggested
BR,
Thanos

 

[thanvg]

I would not hit it from above.

make a beefy nut, I guess with a hole for a pin or a threaded hole for a large screw, say M16 and above.

to get it out, be prepared to really smack it. If you're lucky it'll come out easily

 

[Peter from Holland]

If it is really stuck you could make a hydraulic nut And use a grease gun to fill it with grease

Peter

 

[adrian]

Assuming you have a similar draw bar to standard, one method of removing the adapter would be to remove the draw bar retaining pin shown as 4*32 in the enclosed photo and unscrew the draw bar retaining collar shown as 2113-178

Remove the quill drive shaft and the whole spindle assembly can be removed from the head. Using the draw bar as a push rod, place the spindle assembly in hydraulic press supported by the lower spindle nose and press out the adapter.

Cheers Adrian.

 

[jdm1]

Hello,
I recently bought a Deckel FP1 copy

Which copy? Frim the picture it could be a Provmajska ALG-100.
That machine is well known and deserves to be called by its own name.
The manual that I have posted in this forum contains the original drawings, the ones posted in thread are Deckel ines, which can be slightly different.
I think you are referring to the U2 collets (as they are commonly called) adapter, although it seems different fron the original one.
Ad others have said, you necessarily need a pulling nut with it.
Regarding whacking, avoid if possible but use an aluminium piece in between if you have to do that.
While modicum of heat wouldn't hurt, you will find that is difficult to apply it it precisely as it tends to dissipate all around quickly.
You can in all cases try to make penetrating oil drip down the inner walls of spindle bore from the top.

 

[thanvg]

Assuming you have a similar draw bar to standard, one method of removing the adapter would be to remove the draw bar retaining pin shown as 4*32 in the enclosed photo and unscrew the draw bar retaining collar shown as 2113-178

Remove the quill drive shaft and the whole spindle assembly can be removed from the head. Using the draw bar as a push rod, place the spindle assembly in hydraulic press supported by the lower spindle nose and press out the adapter.

Cheers Adrian.

I'd suggest against pushing anything related to the spindle with a press. Many can go very wrong.

The safe way is to pull.

Either with the nut threads, the hydraulic nut that Peter suggested or a dedicated puller that Bruce has made once (for a different machine but the idea stays the same)

Br,
Thanos

 

[rimcanyon]

I had a mill with a B&S taper and a stuck collet. No amount of pounding would free the collet. I am sure it had been stuck in the machine for a long time. I TIG-welded a threaded rod into the collet (the intent was to use the threads to pull the collet out). It turned out to be unnecessary. The heat and expansion from welding popped the collet right out.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Acyually think the real effect of the welding the threaded rod to the collet was the shrinking of the weld as it cooled and hence shrinking the collet and made removal possible.
Used to remove dry sleeves from auto cylinder blocks by running weld beads inside the sleeves parallel to the long axis.
Works well.
Cheers Ross

 

[benic]

Hello,
Really appreciate all the hints. I managed last night to make a nut for the adapter but didn't have the time to do anything else apart from this, I will do this in the weekend.

Since it was asked it is a Romanian copy manufactured in 1961 from what I saw on one label. The mill is in pretty rough shape but I got it for a good price I would say and it would make for a nice project.

I will come back with updates regarding this issue.

 

[adrian]

To press out or pull out, that is the question.
I can’t see any problem pressing out the sleeve as long as you take care and support the spindle on the same surface the release nut would have worked against.

Using the release nut with a lot of force also has risks There is no spindle lock on these machines so you have to use the gearbox in very low ratio. Hammering a release nut relying on the gears to prevent it turning could be expensive and very time consuming if you break a tooth especially on the bevel head gears.

As previously mentioned a little local heat would help in releasing the sleeve.

Cheers Adrian.

 

[thanvg]

To press out or pull out, that is the question.
I can’t see any problem pressing out the sleeve as long as you take care and support the spindle on the same surface the release nut would have worked against.

Using the release nut with a lot of force also has risks There is no spindle lock on these machines so you have to use the gearbox in very low ratio. Hammering a release nut relying on the gears to prevent it turning could be expensive and very time consuming if you break a tooth especially on the bevel head gears.

As previously mentioned a little local heat would help in releasing the sleeve.

Cheers Adrian.

Hey Adrian,

for the sake of discussion, I really believe that a lot can go wrong when trying to push with a press.
The drawbar is a long and thin part, not guided perfectly, no register going into that sleeve as a guide, with a big gap between the spindle bore. It can easily snap or bend without notice with non predictable results.
The spindle nose also does not have that much to register on.

Pulling doe not have to rely on the gear box. You can pull via a puller grasping the top of the sleeve. I need to find a tool that Bruce made for that once iirc.

There are solutions before getting a precision spindle near a hydraulic press, in my humble opinion of course.

BR,
Thanos

 

[ballen]

In the vertical head there is some kind of adapter which fits some collets which are similar with R8 and I cannot take out this adapter.

Any hints how I could take it out?

I made a tool for removing the stuck collet adapters Deckel spindles.

New (to me) Deckel FP1

I have sourced a winch and have a plan for a beam across my workshop which will some time to implement. A reliable and easy to use hoist or lift system is essential to make good use of a Deckel FP-series mill. Also I have to buy a phase inverter from 240v single to 415v three phase, several...

www.practicalmachinist.com

New owner Deckel FP1 question

Sigurasg, While not disputing your experience about power feeds when running in reverse, the drive dogs in the feed mechanism are designed to kick out if the drive shaft direction is reversed, easily checked with the machine off, engage a feed direction and turn the hand wheel in the back...

www.practicalmachinist.com

New (to me) Deckel FP1

Hello, I'm hoping that I've pressed the right buttons to find the Deckel forum at large, never done this before. There seem to be Deckel owners all over the world and as I've just bought an FP1 I'm wondering if there are any near me in Devon, UK. My machine is from 1969 and I bought it from...

www.practicalmachinist.com

One person I lent it to was here:

Deckel fp1 taking sk40 holder out

Okay. Maybe it's not a sk40 and it's a mt4. I just got told it was a sk40 from where I bought it... But maybe they got it wrong. I will let you know when I get it out.they lied ;)

www.practicalmachinist.com

If this is your problem, and you are willing to (a) pay the postage in both directions and (b) return the tool, then I'll send it to you. Alternatively, follow my design and make your own.

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[Peter from Holland]

This is not a Iso 40 taper but a MT Those can get stuck really hard Much more as a NT40 can
A new MT drill directly in the spindle of a SIP co-drilling machine was not taken out after the job was done
The heatcycle of working the machine pretty hard made it happen that the drill was so stuck they had to drill it out
As a final resort that is possible too of coarce
A boring tool in the vice and the head at a angle makes that easy
Feed with the table
Peter

 

[ballen]

Peter, if what is stuck is an MT4 holder for 20mm collets, then I think my puller will also work for that. See photos here:

New (to me) Deckel FP1

I have sourced a winch and have a plan for a beam across my workshop which will some time to implement. A reliable and easy to use hoist or lift system is essential to make good use of a Deckel FP-series mill. Also I have to buy a phase inverter from 240v single to 415v three phase, several...

www.practicalmachinist.com

A quick-and-dirty alternative:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/new-to-me-deckel-fp1.334433/post-2980953

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[Peter from Holland]

Peter, if what is stuck is an MT4 holder for 20mm collets, then I think my puller will also work for that. See photos here:

New (to me) Deckel FP1

I have sourced a winch and have a plan for a beam across my workshop which will some time to implement. A reliable and easy to use hoist or lift system is essential to make good use of a Deckel FP-series mill. Also I have to buy a phase inverter from 240v single to 415v three phase, several...

www.practicalmachinist.com

A quick-and-dirty alternative:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/new-to-me-deckel-fp1.334433/post-2980953

Cheers,
Bruce

Do you know what STUCK means ??
Stuck is when you use a dubble high nut on a M16piece of allthread and strip the allthread
A MT can get that stuck
Let us see if the OP is succesfull in his attempt with the nut

Peter