Driveplate/faceplate Identity

[Joe Michaels]

I was at the local industrial surplus store yesterday and spotted a faceplate/driveplate sitting on the floor. I included it in a random lot of other stuff I had found. For the price, I figured it might be of some use to one of the members here. The dimensions and description are as follows:

Outer diameter = 10 1/4"
Hub outer diameter = 3"

Register inner diameter: 2. 297"
Register is machined with a heavy radius at the mouth of the bore, instead of the more usual square corner. There is still a flat land for seating the hub against the collar on the spindle.

Spindle threads: 6 threads/inch

Interesting design in that this plate has two (2) slots which are open at the rim, as a driveplate would have. (2) other slots have 'closed ends' (not extending out to the rim)
The design, having two open - ended slots and two closed slots leads me to think this was made as a combination drive (or dog) plate and small faceplate.

Condition: light surface rust on the face of the plate and rim, no signs of any real use, no gouges, dings, or damage.

6 threads/inch for a spindle nose and the odd diameter of the register bore do not bring any of the well known manufacturers' spindle nose dimensions to mind. If anyone has a clue what lathe this was for, I'd appreciate learning that much.

If anyone has any use for this plate, I am happy to let it go for 10 bucks (which is about what I have in it) plus shipping via USPS. The plate seemed too good to let sit on the concrete floor in an odd corner of the surplus store. It's lots easier to bring home a stray lathe drive plate than a stray dog or cat.

 

[Jim Christie]

I knew some older South Bend lathes had larger threaded spindles so I tried a couple of searches .
While the register bore on this face plate is a little too large this link,

http://lathe.com/images/sb_7324.pdf

shows that the 14-1/2 " model has a 2-1/4" -6 thread with a 2.259 register
Perhaps your register could be bored out and fitted with a ring or sleeve for the correct register size if the thread would fit.
I also found another link showing the spindle sizes for several models of lathes that may be useful for someone else in the future.

Spindle Data Summary

These lists may not be complete and more may be available somewhere else.
Also perhaps the faceplate / drive plate may have been used for some other machine or fixture like a cylindrical or cutter grinder or some type of dividing / H/V indexing head .
I know some dividing heads have a clamp to secure the tail of the dog so it is perhaps not for that type of work but I have seen dividing and indexing heads with fairly large threaded spindles before.
Jim

 

[jim rozen]

" It's lots easier to bring home a stray lathe drive plate than a stray dog or cat."

Sounds like you've done both in the past. =)

That surplus store is still operating?

 

[johnoder]

I was at the local industrial surplus store yesterday and spotted a faceplate/driveplate sitting on the floor. I included it in a random lot of other stuff I had found. For the price, I figured it might be of some use to one of the members here. The dimensions and description are as follows:

Outer diameter = 10 1/4"
Hub outer diameter = 3"

Register inner diameter: 2. 297"
Register is machined with a heavy radius at the mouth of the bore, instead of the more usual square corner. There is still a flat land for seating the hub against the collar on the spindle.

Spindle threads: 6 threads/inch

Interesting design in that this plate has two (2) slots which are open at the rim, as a driveplate would have. (2) other slots have 'closed ends' (not extending out to the rim)
The design, having two open - ended slots and two closed slots leads me to think this was made as a combination drive (or dog) plate and small faceplate.

Condition: light surface rust on the face of the plate and rim, no signs of any real use, no gouges, dings, or damage.

6 threads/inch for a spindle nose and the odd diameter of the register bore do not bring any of the well known manufacturers' spindle nose dimensions to mind. If anyone has a clue what lathe this was for, I'd appreciate learning that much.

If anyone has any use for this plate, I am happy to let it go for 10 bucks (which is about what I have in it) plus shipping via USPS. The plate seemed too good to let sit on the concrete floor in an odd corner of the surplus store. It's lots easier to bring home a stray lathe drive plate than a stray dog or cat.

Sent you a "PM" Joe ("started a conversation with you")
John

 

[Joe Michaels]

The faceplate is going to John Oder. I am glad to see it head to him, as John has been a mainstay for all of us who frequent this 'board.

Jim Rozen:
Yes, I've brought home a stray cat (who was about a year old at the time). That cat is now 23 years old. He survived briefly on the streets of Phoenicia, NY, and after taking up with us, survived a coyote encounter by getting treed (and rescued by us the next morning). He shuffles around the kitchen, still able to eat and meow for attention. I also brought home a few new friends along the way, and took a few people under my wing when they were seemingly adrift. Fortunately, my wife is of the same turn of mind as I am. One autumn, ages ago, a buddy noted a couple of scrawny deer at the edge of our woods. He remarked the deer would likely not make it thru winter. We wound up feeding the deer all winter. I was buying several hundred pounds of cattle feed a week and putting it out for the deer. The rumen in deer stomachs ordinarly changed over so that they live on browse (twigs and meagre gleanings that are there in winter). If you start feeding deer corn or grain, you have to keep on with it until spring. We had a hard winter (remember when winters were really winters ?), over 3 feet of snow solidly on the ground until that spring. The deer trod runways in the snow to our house and up to our door. Every morning, there'd be a deer herd on the lawn, some getting right up to the door and stomping around for food. I'd get two 5 gallon pails of corn or cattle feed and walk outside, head on into the deer. I'd start dumping the feed on the compacted snow, never turning my back on the deer. They'd follow me, fighting with each other for the feed. I know it was about a ton of corn and cattle feed that we went thru with the deer that winter.
When we get a black bear on the property, my wife has to half-jokingly tell me not to go out and try to make the bear's acquaintance or invite the bear into the house.
Lately, my wife has been wanting to feed wild birds. This also winds up feeding a mess of squirrels, even with so-called 'squirrel proof' bird feeders. Then, we noted some crows hanging around in the trees some distance off. Every morning, I throw out some finely cut bacon ends, and the crows come to breakfast. We tend to take people and critters into our lives, and wouldn;t have it any other way.

As for the surplus store, the name is P & T Surplus, on the Strand (Abeel Street), in Kingston, NY. The pickings there used to be a lot better, but, as the owner told me the other day, pickings are getting leaner and worse. As he put it: "A man cave nowadays is a finished basement with a big screen TV rather than a workshop." Tim, the owner gets odds and ends of stuff, electronics, medical instrumentation, process instrumentation and things like regulators and fittings, vacuum pumps, casters, electrical and electronic components, pulleys, gears, gearboxes, cutoff or drops of materials. I went to P & T the other day to try to find a 3/4 HP TEFC motor for a flat-belt driven grinder to go in my blacksmith shop. No motors to be had this trip. However, I did see a chromium plated regulator sitting in the heap of fittings and gauges and whatnot. I picked it up and found it was a regulator for TIG welding with a gauge having scales in CFH for Argon and Helium. Name on the gauge face was "Eutectic Alloys, Flushing, NY", and some tradename like 'TIGMaster'. The gauge has the bevelled glass and knurled metal bezel. Couldn't pass it up, will use it with my Miller TIG welding. There are also bins of small very fine hard grinding wheels from the bearing manufacturer in Poughkeepsie. I always grab a few of these wheels as they get used on my toolpost grinder or on the K.O. Lee tool and cutter grinder. You never know what will be at P & T. Some days, pickings are quite good. There are always bins of bolts, sold at a low per-pound price, and bins of random socket head screws and dowel pins and springs. We once were trying to get two new hydro turbines started at Ashokan. The governors were an adaptation of Woodward UG 40 (diesel engine governors, 40 ft-lbs on the actuator shaft), with a pilot valve and main distributing valve to port oil to various hydraulic servos. Design was by Tampella, in Finland, and sold/installed by the James Leffel Company of Springfield, OH. The governors would not stabilize to where we could synchronize the units into the grid. We went to P & T armed with dial calipers and a mental image of what springs might be needed to improve the governing system. We rooted thru bins of random springs, found an assortment, and used some of them to get those units on line. Tim, the owner, will always treat anyone who seems to know something of machinery and similar quite nicely. Tim and I reminisce about the old days on Canal Street down in NYC where there were a few blocks of stores similar to his P & T Surplus. I've gotten hand tools, pipe fittings, power transmission components, materials, and lots more at P & T.

 

[johnoder]

The faceplate is going to John Oder

Arrived in fine shape - many thanks Joe

 

[4GSR]

I guess John is going to buy a lathe to fit that face plate to now?

 

[johnoder]

I guess John is going to buy a lathe to fit that face plate to now?

Yeahbut it needs opening up to big old LeBlond threads

 

[Joe Michaels]

John Oder:

I am glad to read that you got the faceplate OK. The spindle dimensions that I was able to get from that faceplate as well as the radius at the mouth of the register bore have me wondering what lathe spindle it fit onto. I know LeBlond tended to use 5 threads/inch on some of their threaded spindle noses. The OD of the hub/boss on that faceplate is 3" and the register ID, taken with a digital caliper is 2.297". What lathe spindle can that faceplate be bored/threaded to fit ? From the looks of it, there is not that much meat left in the walls of the boss to bore out and thread for anything too much larger. I'm interested to learn what lathe spindle you plan to fit that faceplate onto.

My 13" Roundhead Regal lathe has a 2 1/8" -5 tpi spindle nose thread. I know ready-made backplates for that spindle nose thread are non-existent, so make my own. An idea I've toyed with came up when I got a used Buck 4 jaw chuck. It had a massive cast iron backplate, threaded for a Southbend or Sheldon lathe spindle nose, and that thread is 2 1/4"-8. The backplate looked like someone took a slice of large diameter cast iron round bar and hogged a backplate out of it, no reduced diameter hub or boss being turned to make the backplate. With the backplate as massive as it is, I thought about simply boring out the threads and shrinking in a steel plug, and pinning the plug with two setscrews ("dutchmen", half in the bushing, half in the cast iron backplate). Once the hole in the backplate was plugged with steel, I could then bore and thread it to fit the LeBlond spindle nose. I shot this idea down for a few reasons. One being that if I did put a steel plug into the existing iron backplate and threaded/fit it to the LeBlond spindle, I'd have to true the backplate by re-machining the spigot for mounting the 4 jaw chuck. At that point, I would not be gaining anything, and did not like the idea of depending on a shrink-fit adapter bushing. Easier all around to just make a steel backplate. Now I also have a Bison cast iron backplate blank I bought from a member here, so am in good shape.

I remember when I was a teenager, about 1964 or thereabouts, I used to browse the used machine tool district in NY City after school on Fridays. There was what used to be called a "Mill Supply". Mill Supply was a term used to describe an industrial supply firm or store. This particular Mill Supply was a Starrett dealer, so when I had the coin, I'd buy Starrett tools there. Small purchases like a 604 6" rule, a hermaphrodite caliper, a scriber. I remember they had a stack of rough cast iron backplate blanks. These had the boss for use on threaded spindle noses. Going back very nearly 50 years, threaded spindle noses on lathes were still fairly common.

Up our way, there is a small iron foundry. They pour small one-off castings and will take stove or boiler grates and use them as patterns to pour replacements. They pour castings for people restoring old engines and machinery. This foundry poured iron castings for the boiler setting at Hanford Mills, using patterns made at the Mill. I've thought about making a wood pattern for a lathe chuck backplate and having a few poured by this foundry. About the only kicker is that these would be solid castings, no rough-cast center bore. I would ask the foundry if they can make a dry sand core if I make a core-box. If members are interested, I can pursue this idea.

 

[johnoder]

John Oder:

I am glad to read that you got the faceplate OK. The spindle dimensions that I was able to get from that faceplate as well as the radius at the mouth of the register bore have me wondering what lathe spindle it fit onto. I know LeBlond tended to use 5 threads/inch on some of their threaded spindle noses. The OD of the hub/boss on that faceplate is 3" and the register ID, taken with a digital caliper is 2.297". What lathe spindle can that faceplate be bored/threaded to fit ? From the looks of it, there is not that much meat left in the walls of the boss to bore out and thread for anything too much larger. I'm interested to learn what lathe spindle you plan to fit that faceplate onto.

My 13" Roundhead Regal lathe has a 2 1/8" -5 tpi spindle nose thread. I know ready-made backplates for that spindle nose thread are non-existent, so make my own. An idea I've toyed with came up when I got a used Buck 4 jaw chuck. It had a massive cast iron backplate, threaded for a Southbend or Sheldon lathe spindle nose, and that thread is 2 1/4"-8. The backplate looked like someone took a slice of large diameter cast iron round bar and hogged a backplate out of it, no reduced diameter hub or boss being turned to make the backplate. With the backplate as massive as it is, I thought about simply boring out the threads and shrinking in a steel plug, and pinning the plug with two setscrews ("dutchmen", half in the bushing, half in the cast iron backplate). Once the hole in the backplate was plugged with steel, I could then bore and thread it to fit the LeBlond spindle nose. I shot this idea down for a few reasons. One being that if I did put a steel plug into the existing iron backplate and threaded/fit it to the LeBlond spindle, I'd have to true the backplate by re-machining the spigot for mounting the 4 jaw chuck. At that point, I would not be gaining anything, and did not like the idea of depending on a shrink-fit adapter bushing. Easier all around to just make a steel backplate. Now I also have a Bison cast iron backplate blank I bought from a member here, so am in good shape.

I remember when I was a teenager, about 1964 or thereabouts, I used to browse the used machine tool district in NY City after school on Fridays. There was what used to be called a "Mill Supply". Mill Supply was a term used to describe an industrial supply firm or store. This particular Mill Supply was a Starrett dealer, so when I had the coin, I'd buy Starrett tools there. Small purchases like a 604 6" rule, a hermaphrodite caliper, a scriber. I remember they had a stack of rough cast iron backplate blanks. These had the boss for use on threaded spindle noses. Going back very nearly 50 years, threaded spindle noses on lathes were still fairly common.

Up our way, there is a small iron foundry. They pour small one-off castings and will take stove or boiler grates and use them as patterns to pour replacements. They pour castings for people restoring old engines and machinery. This foundry poured iron castings for the boiler setting at Hanford Mills, using patterns made at the Mill. I've thought about making a wood pattern for a lathe chuck backplate and having a few poured by this foundry. About the only kicker is that these would be solid castings, no rough-cast center bore. I would ask the foundry if they can make a dry sand core if I make a core-box. If members are interested, I can pursue this idea.

Thanks Joe.
Its this big tough twenties heavy duty Le Blond, 19" with 3 1/2 -4 spindle nose thread - so you are no doubt correct about the fact that the back plate will need some help if used

 

[Joe Michaels]

John Oder:

Thanks for posting the catalog cut of the LeBlond heavy duty lathe. Is this heavy duty LeBlond Lathe a machine tool in your shop ? It looks like a real bruiser for its size. 3 1/2" - 4 spindle thread vs the driveplate I sent you sounds like more than 'some help' needed to make it work. The outer diameter of the hub/boss on the drive plate is 3". Unless you know some way to stretch cast iron, it would seem like the hub/boss on that drive plate is too small a diameter. Are you planning to machine off the existing a hub/boss and fit a new, larger hub boss to the drive plate ?

Maybe I ought to think in terms of making patterns for a threaded spindle chuck backplate, as well as a driveplate or faceplate. I'd make the patterns with a very heavy hub/boss to allow it to be bored/threaded for anything up to 3 1/2" diameter spindles. This would mean a hub/boss of about 5" diameter, giving 3/4" of wall thickness.
I can get some mahogany at the lumberyard in Woodstock, NY. They have a good selection of clear hardwoods. Getting kiln-dried clear pine for pattern lumber could be more of a problem. Making a simple pattern or two and getting some castings poured by the local iron foundry might be a fun project. I have not made a pattern in ages. Shipping costs for castings of that type/size would be a killer unless I held the outer diameter of the castings to a size that fit in the USPS flat rate boxes.

 

[johnoder]

John Oder:

Thanks for posting the catalog cut of the LeBlond heavy duty lathe. Is this heavy duty LeBlond Lathe a machine tool in your shop ? It looks like a real bruiser for its size. 3 1/2" - 4 spindle thread vs the driveplate I sent you sounds like more than 'some help' needed to make it work. The outer diameter of the hub/boss on the drive plate is 3". Unless you know some way to stretch cast iron, it would seem like the hub/boss on that drive plate is too small a diameter. Are you planning to machine off the existing a hub/boss and fit a new, larger hub boss to the drive plate ?

Maybe I ought to think in terms of making patterns for a threaded spindle chuck backplate, as well as a driveplate or faceplate. I'd make the patterns with a very heavy hub/boss to allow it to be bored/threaded for anything up to 3 1/2" diameter spindles. This would mean a hub/boss of about 5" diameter, giving 3/4" of wall thickness.
I can get some mahogany at the lumberyard in Woodstock, NY. They have a good selection of clear hardwoods. Getting kiln-dried clear pine for pattern lumber could be more of a problem. Making a simple pattern or two and getting some castings poured by the local iron foundry might be a fun project. I have not made a pattern in ages. Shipping costs for castings of that type/size would be a killer unless I held the outer diameter of the castings to a size that fit in the USPS flat rate boxes.

I like the foundry idea - being a pattern maker of sorts as can be seen here

Castings look good

Thumbnail below shows steel castings for the linked pattern making project Model T Ford Forum: Snowmobile, Wheel-Ski spindle project.

www.practicalmachinist.com

Here this beast - its in one of Matt's out buildings - and has plenty of issues. The "well busted" left leg is a project in itself - in order to be able to move it the 60 odd miles to my place

 

[Joe Michaels]

We kidded about taking in strays. That poor old LeBlond lathe looks like it is a disabled war veteran, having a wooden leg and years of abuse and neglect.

Interesting design to the compound. I have a booklet from Lindsay written by Professor John Sweet around 1900. It deals with things that usually are wrong in machine design. Interestingly, Sweet addressed the design of lathe compounds. He advocated for a lathe compound with the tee slot at an angle to the centerline of the compound, as LeBlond has done on this lathe.

As for moving the beast, the busted legs at the headstock end are a bit of a challenge. I'd opt for fabricating some steel plates bent to the curvature or angle of the legs, welded to some short 'stub legs' made of heavy steel angle. Bolting the curved plates to the ends of the 'femurs' would give a solid set of legs under the headstock end. If there is an oxy-fuel cutting outfit handy, the plates could be hot-formed right against the lathe's femurs. Call it splicing on prosthetic lower legs and feet. I tend to think like a blacksmith or boilermaker when I see something like the damage to the lathe's legs. Not what you'd call an 'invisible repair' for someone wanting to restore the lathe to original (or as near as possible) condition/appearance, but a solid repair that will work for another century or two.

At Brooklyn Tech HS in 1964-68, all freshmen had two semesters of wood patternmaking. Simple one-piece patterns made from clear pine. In my junior year, I had one more semester of advanced patternmaking. We also had a few semesters of foundry classes. I suppose I had better look on eBay for a shrink rule for cast iron ( 1/8" per foot, we kids had to know that value). If I go for a 5"hub/boss diameter, to keep casting weight down, I suppose I had better plan on putting maybe a 1 3/4" diameter cored hole thru the pattern. This would leave enough wall material for boring/threading for anything from about a 2" spindle thread on up to 3 1/2" or a tad more. An idea would be to simply make some backplate castings. If a person wanted a faceplate (or fixture plate), they could get a burnout of steel plate in whatever size disc they needed, have it blanchard ground on one surface, and fasten it to the backplate with socket head screws and dowel pins. Now I have to get in touch with the iron foundry and find out their cost per lb for iron castings.

 

[johnoder]

We kidded about taking in strays. That poor old LeBlond lathe looks like it is a disabled war veteran, having a wooden leg and years of abuse and neglect.

Interesting design to the compound. I have a booklet from Lindsay written by Professor John Sweet around 1900. It deals with things that usually are wrong in machine design. Interestingly, Sweet addressed the design of lathe compounds. He advocated for a lathe compound with the tee slot at an angle to the centerline of the compound, as LeBlond has done on this lathe.

As for moving the beast, the busted legs at the headstock end are a bit of a challenge. I'd opt for fabricating some steel plates bent to the curvature or angle of the legs, welded to some short 'stub legs' made of heavy steel angle. Bolting the curved plates to the ends of the 'femurs' would give a solid set of legs under the headstock end. If there is an oxy-fuel cutting outfit handy, the plates could be hot-formed right against the lathe's femurs. Call it splicing on prosthetic lower legs and feet. I tend to think like a blacksmith or boilermaker when I see something like the damage to the lathe's legs. Not what you'd call an 'invisible repair' for someone wanting to restore the lathe to original (or as near as possible) condition/appearance, but a solid repair that will work for another century or two.

At Brooklyn Tech HS in 1964-68, all freshmen had two semesters of wood patternmaking. Simple one-piece patterns made from clear pine. In my junior year, I had one more semester of advanced patternmaking. We also had a few semesters of foundry classes. I suppose I had better look on eBay for a shrink rule for cast iron ( 1/8" per foot, we kids had to know that value). If I go for a 5"hub/boss diameter, to keep casting weight down, I suppose I had better plan on putting maybe a 1 3/4" diameter cored hole thru the pattern. This would leave enough wall material for boring/threading for anything from about a 2" spindle thread on up to 3 1/2" or a tad more. An idea would be to simply make some backplate castings. If a person wanted a faceplate (or fixture plate), they could get a burnout of steel plate in whatever size disc they needed, have it blanchard ground on one surface, and fasten it to the backplate with socket head screws and dowel pins. Now I have to get in touch with the iron foundry and find out their cost per lb for iron castings.

I still have some of the quartered 8" pipe that I used on the GK leg long ago. Fair chance it is sort of the right "curve". Here is that front "leg" upside down in the mill - and how it looked when I got it