Iron Tour 2015 - Lots of pics

[zephyrous]

To clear things up, I should mention that "Meister" is legaly the lowest level of technical education someone needs to start/maintain a workshop/jobshop/bussiness of this type.
Obviously Mr Kramer's work, is more scientific and detailed in a way that surpasses engineers by far...

 

[TNB]

It is interesting how young Herr Kramer appears to be. My own (probably unfounded) perspective is that *true* machine artists are a bit of a dying breed and hence tend to be on the older side. Do you know anything about his history, as in where he learned the trade, etc?

Rüdiger Kramer is only 45 yrs old, but he can claim 27 years of experience in the machine tool reconditionning field.

It seems like he had a very strong relationship with his father in law, who was not the average guy. From what Rüdiger told us, he was a top scraper / "monteur" (don't know if this is the correct translation) for a top swiss manufacturer. Talk about an introduction to the trade...
I seem to recall it was SGIP, but not sure anymore - sooo many things in so little time !

So I can imagine with such a mentor and the passion he showed us, his learning curve was a little "steeper" than the typical one...

 

[TNB]

We had an extremely interesting talk with Herr Kramer.

One thing that I noticed is that he is strongly against the use of turcite (for a lathe carriage at least, since this is what we talked about).
He told us about the story of a potential customer who asked for a quote for the complete rebuild of a Schaublin 150.

That customer also inquired from competitors and finally choosed on of them, who offered the same rebuild for 3000 euros less than Ruemema. It turns out that that competitor used turcite to compensate the loss of height after bed grinding. Of course, to accomodate the thickness of the turcite liner, the carriage ways also had to be milled.
Ruemema does not operate this way and prefers to re-align the carriage by scraping and tweaking the gears mesh after the bed regrind.
It is my understanding that this is a much more difficult and time consuming process, but it obviously restores the machine's original condition where the cast iron carriage runs directly on the freshly ground bed.

Nevertheless a few monthes later, the customer called Rüdiger to see if something could be done about their "pristine" 150, wich seemingly had developped undue play between the bed and carriage...

Rüdiger answered that due to the milling of the carriage there was nothing he could do anymore, and politely advised them to scrap (not scrape : scrap) the lathe (makes me think I should have asked him for the adress of the scrapyard)

To be fair after meeting Rüdiger, I can't believe it was a way to "punish" the customer for his poor choice, but more likely due to the fact that he determined what was the RIGHT way of doing things properly, and won't cut the corners nor compromise on quality at any rate.

The best customer of Ruemema has 8 of their machines. That must be saying something

 

[Kees]

Ruemema does not operate this way and prefers to re-align the carriage by scraping and tweaking the gears mesh after the bed regrind.

I agree, that is indeed the way to go.

 

[Milacron]

(makes me think I should have asked him for the adress of the scrapyard)

It's probably still running, turning shaft welds or something

 

[Peter from Holland]

Turcite is fine if the machine was designed for it
But for a aftermarket solution the ways are often not wide enough
At least thats my experience with the Hembrug Ergonomic with its blockways and Turcite lining They held pretty good

Another point I would like to mention
If anyone is in the market for a new small machine in the USD 35000 range I would recommend to look into buying a Ruemema machine
That is the best machine for the money you can get at the moment (I know he is reading this so: Raise your prices a bitt Ruediger)
Keep in mind that using a old casting or weldment has the advantige that the material is well seasoned
That Leinen machine is as good or better as a new Hardinghe HLV IMHO and looking at http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...an-you-order-brand-new-hlv-h-hardinge-235491/ also a lott cheaper
Yes I know I sound like trying to make a sale and for sure I would love it if one was sold by someone after reading this thread


peter from holland

 

[wrench]

"Mr Kramer's work, is more scientific and detailed in a way that surpasses engineers by far" Respectfully, I have to almost completely disagree with this comment. I look at the two as complementary services, not competing ones. It would not surprise me one bit if Mr. Kramer, who *clearly* has shown he is a master artisan, would barely be able to create the machines he so expertly restores. Although there are overlaps in the thought that goes on in both disciplines, they are still substantial different.

Regarding Moglice, Turcite, etc... I'd have a similar thought there too. There are multiple ways to skin a cat and rarely is one always correct. He may have a strong opinion, but he is still a human and subject to his own prejudices, likes, dislikes, and familiarity with both products and techniques. Clearly Mr. Kramer has found what works for him and has justified it as being his preferred approach for restoring machinery. He apparently has a reputation that supports his approach.... for him. But it is also untrue that only machines touched by him are fantastic (and well designed) and all others are pieces of junk. I think it is fair to say that Turcite and Moglice probably have simplified the (re)manufacturing process considerably and that is one of the reasons they have been so successful, though. That is kind of the evolution of manufacturing technology. It is, by the way, probably one reason why a trip such as that having been documented in this thread, would not be nearly as interesting if it were conducted in America.... All too often we employ the Henry Ford technique of mass production versus artisan. But, then again, there are likely some very interesting jewels around the country (Ross' comes to mind immediately) that would be fun. And even touring the Haas plant could be fascinating; it would show, of course, a completely different side of machinery though.

Anyhow, those are just my observations about some of the other thoughts presented recently. I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts Peter and Tien. Thank you, for the 1M time, for taking the time to share your experiences with us all.

Alan

[EDIT: I received a concern that how I phrased this post may not have been kind to Herr Kramer. I decided not to edit the original posting as this can get kind of confusing because there have been several other posts since then. However, my response is in #133. Let me be clear that I *firmly* believe that Herr Kramer is a master craftsman... no, an artisan. I have *immense* respect for his ability and for the products he produces. I also understand that his decisions on how he wishes to perform his craft are almost a type of personal signature. There is true art in being able to recondition a machine to better than new status, while still preserving the original characteristic and function of the device (i.e avoiding Turcite). In fact, I actually think it is extremely impressive that he can perform so much work on the beds and still maintain this character and if I had a choice (and the skill) I would do the same.]

 

[zephyrous]

Mr Kramer's work, is more scientific and detailed in a way that surpasses engineers by far...

Oops, I meant "technicians"(not engineers) which is the highest level of non-academic technical education somebody can get in Germany.Of course I agree ,that they are both(technicians and engineers) mandatory for the design and manufacture of these machines...

 

[Milacron]

Beeing introduced to Mr DRACA was a very pleasant experience for me. The man is incredibly nice with his visitors. He took time for us, let us inspect all the machines in the warehouse and take all the pictures we wanted. We were offered capuccinos for Peter's delight, and even had some croissants to ,keep us well fed while hearing at Mr DRACA's stories.

When a machine tool dealer meets another machine tool dealer, guess what they usually talk about ? Machines and other dealers...
As for me, I couldn't have dreamed about a more interesting experience. And I was here....

Interesting....that Fehlmann Picomax 50 is a dead ringer for the one I had...even the DRO is the same, except I later updated mine to a Heidenhain that would display in inches. It is a little cleaner than mine was...ironically mine had the most difficult to remove coolant (or spray mist) residue I have ever encountered on a machine. I could have kept at it and got it looking as good as that one (without any painting...just more cleaning) but it was quite time consuming to clean mine up to the state I showed it here years ago.

The fellow I sold it to (5 or 6 years ago I think) has yet to use it...still sitting in his machine hoard warehouse ! I tried to buy it back about six months ago but he wouldn't take less than he paid...and he paid too much ! I drove and saw it...looks forlorn, getting a little rusty in unheated building...ridiculous. But the guy has so much money he doesn't care.

I was tempted to buy it back regardless but decided I'll hold out for one of the more modern CNC/manual Fehlmann's someday. (of which I notice none of in your photos....the white ones I see are older painted to create the illusion they are more "modern"...well, ok there is one sort of modern on the left side in your Mikron photos, but what I mean really in image below)

=================================

(on edit) Wait...mine was better...just noticed the X DRO scale on the front of the table...mine had the scales integrated into the table and cross slide casting casting so you couldn't even see they were there. The table and cross were actually milled out to receive the Heidenhain slim scales, so they were hidden. A flush access plate on the front was all that showed on my table.

 

[CBlair]

The fellow I sold it to (5 or 6 years ago I think) has yet to use it...still sitting in his machine hoard warehouse ! I tried to buy it back about 5 months ago but he wouldn't take less than he paid...and he paid too much ! I drove and saw it...looks forlorn, getting a little rusty in unheated building...ridiculous. But the guy has so much money he doesn't care.

That is almost un-believable...you would hope he would at least care enough to put some oil on it?

Charles

 

[Milacron]

That is almost un-believable...you would hope he would at least care enough to put some oil on it?

Charles

It actually still has some LPS-3 that I sprayed on it when he picked it up...if not for that it would be more than a little rusty. But that also gave me pause about buying it back... pay the same and have to clean it up again ! Meanwhile, if the guy ever kicks the bucket or goes bankrupt and it get's auctioned off, it will go for nothing...the same nothing I paid for it because apparently I was the only one at the auction in Charlotte, NC that knew it wasn't just a fancy mill drill !

The machine is located in a warehouse less than 40 miles from your shop btw.

 

[wrench]

apparently I was the only one at the auction in Charlotte, NC that knew it wasn't just a fancy mill drill !

I have to laugh because I was one of those other guys at a different location. I had the opportunity to purchase a very nice Fehlmann but I didn't really know what it was. Ironically, I am still not too sure I know! I guess I should research it.... I also had a chance to purchase a pristine, very modern, Aciera F1 for a song and, earlier, a fully tooled, pristine, older F1 for $1300. Again, I didn't really know what to think of it at the time. But, in fairness, I have no room and little use for any of these, I suspect; so it probably doesn't really matter in the end.... If I want to crib, it would be the fact that I didn't go to Google when it was still in a single building. <sigh> Now, *that* hurts quite a bit... Not sure I want to go there now, though!

 

[wrench]

I checked my PM and there was a message from a concerned PM member regarding the following comment that I made: "But it is also untrue that only machines touched by him are fantastic (and well designed) and all others are pieces of junk."

A request was made that I perhaps modify this but given that it is out there, I don't quite feel that this would be appropriate. Sometimes the translation between thought/voice and the written form do not come out as one may expect. Therefore, I wanted to clarify what I was trying to say....

First and foremost, I have an immense amount of respect for Mr. Kramer's abilities. He likely eclipses the skill that 99% of those on this board have (assumption) and absolutely eclipses mine (certainty!). What I was trying to convey in the comment was that I believe, however, that there are many many people that can perform fine rebuilding of their machines. Perusing the different forums on PM will quickly validate that. Mr. Kramer takes extensive effort to practice his craft as a commercial enterprise and should be acknowledged for his product. I am confident in saying that I think his machines represent a "best in class" result and I think that is where the comment may have been misinterpreted. Again, no slight against his work was ever intended, whether directly or through implication.

So.... Herr Kramer... If we ever meet I'd love to get you a cappuccino. I truly wish you all the best... Peter and Tien: I remain extremely appreciative that you have shared your experiences and for giving us the pleasure of reading about your trip (and a cappuccino is still extended to you too, of course...).

Alan

 

[wrench]

Hopefully getting away from any unintended ruckus that I may have started().... Schaublin, I believe, is no longer in business (although I remember hearing that assets of the company were being used to manufacture more lathes until they run out). This begs the question, then, of where Herr Kramer is procuring the parts used during the restoration. Some items such as leadscrews and nuts are pseudo-consumables and given the accuracy of his rebuilds, I'm assuming that this means they are automatically replaced. In America at least, it doesn't seem like the 150 or 160 lathes were widely sold so I would think parts would be awfully difficult to source.

I am also curious how long it takes to rebuild one of these machines. I am actually kind of surprised that Herr Kramer can sell the machines at the 35000USD price point. Given the cost of the base machine, in addition to equipping and maintaining a shop, it is amazing he can do as much detailing as he does and still sell it at that price. So, yes, I hope someone here does send him some business....

 

[stephen thomas]

Good for you, wrench. And if people treat your comments for what they are, thoughtful analysis rather than religious blasphemy, I don't think anyone should have a problem with an alternate observation.

What I always find absolutely astounding, intimidating, and depressingly out of reach is the business acumen of such people who make a sustained and growing success in the economic world, of craft excellence. In many ways that is the special part. Many people can do the craft, if they could find a way to get paid for it. A very few have the focus and drive, organization, and comprehension to do it and have the rest of the world compete for their product and skills.

I think you misunderstood what he meant by "engineer", though. I think it was closer to the English sense of a top machinist.

smt

 

[stephen thomas]

Tien, Peterve, such a wonderful trip, great documentation, and gorgeous scenery and photos!

I told my wife: "next time we do Europe, this is the trip we are taking!"
She came in to see what i was talking about, and then just stayed to look at all the pictures. She knows what most of the machines are at least in concept, but we both commented to the effect that even if a person did not, the graphic sense and atmosphere in most of them was art.

smt

 

[wrench]

Well said. Running a business is hard work. Making it profitable is even harder. Maintaining a love while making it profitable is tougher yet! It is a rare breed that can manage all of that *and* maintain a level of excellence that is clearly so demonstrable. Certainly it can be done, but is is, unfortunately far more rare than it should be.

Regarding "engineer". Yes, that was cleared up. I should also point out that when I said, "it would not surprise me...." that was also not meant as a slight. It was to focus on the belief I had, and still have, that there are many different disciplines and the skills of a master rebuilder are different than those of a designer. Some may be great at both, some may not. Doing great work doesn't mandate that you know both fields though.

 

[TNB]

Alan

Schaublin is still in the business and it is my understanding that most of the parts Rüdiger Kramer uses in his rebuilds are genuine, provided by Schaublin.
When he took example of that cracked spindle locknut to explain how easy it could be to spend 20.000 euros in spare parts on a Schaublin 150 rebuild, Rüdiger positively mentionned the price Schaublin was asking for that part.

As we were asking him the reasons for getting specialized in such a narrow selection of machines, he told us that there were two main reasons :

• -the quality of the base machine
• -parts availability, wich is mandatory to be able to know what you're getting into right from the start of a project

As for prices, the basic Ruemema machine is the Leinen. I seem to recall the price for a rebuilded one was in the neighborhood of 30.000 euros (including the base machine).
For a 150, 35.000 euros was mentionned as the average price for a rebuild, assuming you provide the machine, that is.

It takes Rüdiger about 700/1000 hours to rebuild a 150. Peter will correct me if I'm wrong. I give you all these figures from memory. Of course (sadly), we weren't taking notes while listenning to his explainations...

 

[Milacron]

Schaublin, I believe, is no longer in business

That is completely wrong....not only are they in business, they keep introducing new models. I haven't bought parts for my 135 lathes in a few years but had no problem doing so back then. Bought a drive belt for my 102N from Schaublin about a year ago. Schaublin even had a booth at the 2012 IMTS show....I drink coffee from my Schaublin cup from that show every morning Maybe you have them confused with Aciera ?

 

[TNB]

Stephen

Thank you very much for the kind words. I'm really happy that you enjoy the pictures.