Looking for a Deckel FP1 Horizontal Arbor

[Kneedrager]

I recently purchased a 1965 Deckel FP1. Unfortunately it did not come with a horizontal arbor (it came with the overarm support but not the arbor). Does anyone have one they'd be willing to part with, or know a US distributor that would sell one. I tried ordering one from RC machine in Luxembourg, but customs refused it and they're returning my money. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks - Scott

 

[Martin P]

Customs refused it? Are those damn Luxies on some kind of blockade list. They should be.

 

[jdm1]

Does anyone have one they'd be willing to part with, or know a US distributor that would sell one.

Arbors come in different diameters 16, 22, 27, 32mm to accomodate different cutters. So you need to specify which one you need.
I may have an extra one from my ALG-100, not sure which size, it's an MT4 S20 then would need to confirm the front journal Dia and lenght.

customs refused it and they're returning my money.

You should get the exact reason the problem, because whatever technicality or missing document caused that, it may happen again.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Be aware that there are options and differences.
Check with Singer, or Peter.
Don’t see why there would be any issue shipping an arbor.
But be aware that “Deckel” supplied horizontal arbors in both inch and metric dimensions.
For you having an inch arbor has the advantage of it being easier to find tooling that would fit (US).

Most likely what you will get from the usual European sources will be metric and will make it harder ( not impossible) to find plain milling cutters to fit (center mounting hole)

Finding a U.S. made arbor while not impossible will be somewhat difficult.
Most US built horizontals had 50 taper spindles, you need a # 40.
Further any US made arbor will likely be an NMTB 40 , which will require modification to fit your machine.
( nobody makes a CAT or BT horizontal arbor)

My personal suggestion would be to purchase a “stub” arbor.
A CAT40 stub in inch will work in your spindle with the simple addition of an adapter stud( make your own) that couples the 5/8-11 thread in the holder to the 20x2 thread of your draw bar.

Of course if a member here has a surplus arbor that they would sell, then all bets are off.

Cheers Ross

 

[jdm1]

Most likely what you will get from the usual European sources will be metric and will make it harder ( not impossible) to find plain milling cutters to fit (center mounting hole)

Is it heretic to use bushings?
Asking without knowing or checking what are the common US sizes close to a smaller metric.

My personal suggestion would be to purchase a “stub” arbor.

I have the stub arbors, and with the vertical head being worked on, I'm using the horizontal for anything that is possible. But if the work was bigger, harder or more far away from the spindle I couldn't do it that way.

 

[Martin P]

Do you mean the arbor or the arbor support?
For a 65 machine you probably need MT4 size.
Since I sold my older FP1 I have long and short arbors for sale. Metric only.

 

[Kneedrager]

Thanks for the replies. My machine is a 40 taper. The total length is only about 12" with a 17mm pilot. I'd be looking for 1" or 7/8" diameter as that's what most of my blades / cutters are. Here's a link to the one I tried to get from RC Machine: https://www.rcm-machines.com/en/iso40-milling-machine-arbor--27-mm-with-s20-x-2-thread/rcfdlsk4027d

 

[jdm1]

I'd be looking for 1" or 7/8" diameter as that's what most of my blades / cutters are. Here's a link to the one I tried to get from RC Machine: https://www.rcm-machines.com/en/iso40-milling-machine-arbor--27-mm-with-s20-x-2-thread/rcfdlsk4027d

Well 27mm is bigger than your cutters so perhaps it was good that some customs officer decided to start fighting global commerce.
I suppose you had factored using bushings anyway, 22m would then work for you.

 

[drcoelho]

Don't understand why you would have customs problems, this was almost certainly a problem on the shipper side not doing the forms properly. For my FP1 I purchased a complete set of arbors (metric) from FPS in germany, and also had them manufacture a complete set of arbors (inch) as well (I believe they outsourced this to some 3rd party german shop). You then also will need the sleeves. FPS supplied the metric sleeves, and I had no problem sourcing inch sleeves from US suppliers. All the arbors shipped successfully from germany to USA with no customs problems at all.

 

[ballen]

These are pretty easy to find in Germany in metric sizes, for example here is a 22mm one for 30 Euro:

Heimwerken. Heimwerkerbedarf gebraucht kaufen | eBay Kleinanzeigen ist jetzt Kleinanzeigen

Kleinanzeigen: Heimwerken. Heimwerkerbedarf gebraucht kaufen - Jetzt in Recklinghausen finden oder inserieren! eBay Kleinanzeigen ist jetzt Kleinanzeigen.

www.kleinanzeigen.de

[Actually I would not buy that one, it appears that the bearing stub at the end has been modified or removed.]

Have you got a cylindrical grinder? If so you could get a couple of 27mm arbors and grind them down to 1" and 7/8".

 

[kridri]

I recently purchased a 1965 Deckel FP1. Unfortunately it did not come with a horizontal arbor (it came with the overarm support but not the arbor). Does anyone have one they'd be willing to part with, or know a US distributor that would sell one. I tried ordering one from RC machine in Luxembourg, but customs refused it and they're returning my money. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks - Scott

I have two for sale In Belgium

 

[jdm1]

Have you got a cylindrical grinder? If so you could get a couple of 27mm arbors and grind them down to 1" and 7/8".

I don't think that suitable grinders are a very commonly available machine tool for everyone, that aside 27mm down to 25.4 over 300mm is 79 cm3 of material abrasion, or 221 cm3 to 7/8" (quick approximate math), not exactly a quick cheap job.
Then we don't know (at least, I don't) if these arbors are fully hardened, if they are not what you would do when left with "soft" steel?
Not to mention that then one would have no use for the precise, hard spacers that come with arbors. A pity in my opinion.
Makes the prospective of making a new completely new arbor in the USA to be appealing compared than flying one over and attacking it brutally.

I haven't heard yet about the idea of getting 22mm arbors and make the few bushings necessary.

Or buying new metric cutters.

 

[thanvg]

If I may,

if you're having a hard time looking for a horizontal arbor for your Deckel, go to your local swap meeting or scrap yard and get an arbor for any kind of machine (40 taper, 50 taper, whatever), as long as the OD fits your tools or your liking.

Cut the taper off, stick in on the lathe and turn it down to 17 mm at the end (or whatever your support bushing is).

Then stick it in a collet in your horizontal (with as shim so as not to hurt your collet or collet nut face when tightening the end nut on the arbor) and you're good to go.

If you want to be fancy, you can turn the 50 taper down to fit your favorite collet and also keep the flange for the spacers to rest on.

BR,
Thanos

 

[thanvg]

I don't think that suitable grinders are a very commonly available machine tool for everyone, that aside 27mm down to 25.4 over 300mm is 79 cm3 of material abrasion, or 221 cm3 to 7/8" (quick approximate math), not exactly a quick cheap job.
Then we don't know (at least, I don't) if these arbors are fully hardened, if they are not what you would do when left with "soft" steel?
Not to mention that then one would have no use for the precise, hard spacers that come with arbors. A pity in my opinion.
Makes the prospective of making a new completely new arbor in the USA to be appealing compared than flying one over and attacking it brutally.

I haven't heard yet about the idea of getting 22mm arbors and make the few bushings necessary.

Or buying new metric cutters.

I suppose roughing out would be on the lathe.
Still the keyway thing is an issue when trying to thin down such arbors.

BR,
Thanos

 

[drcoelho]

If one is trying to turn down a Deckel style arbor, it will be very difficult on a lathe as those arbors are hardened. Furthermore, you've got too much material to go from a metric to inch arbor on a cylindrical grinder.

If one were not able to purchase the arbor on used market, I would manufacture one from scratch, but this would entail lathe work for rough-in, followed by hardening, followed by cylindrical grinder. One possible time saver would be to purchase a suitable blank shaft with the matching taper already machined. For my machine, with DIN 69871 taper, there are blanks readily available, the taper is pre-manufactured, and the rest of it is machinable, hardenable, ready to put on the lathe.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Lots of suggestions here, none of which are really very good.
I would contact Singer first off.
Could be an outside chance that he may have an inch arbor or two on hand.

Cheers Ross

 

[DJ2]

Just be careful about re-machining a metric part; I have an older 1950's FP1 with the MT4 taper and S20 thread. Found a 27mm metric arbour on the internet and had it ground down to one inch; it was completely butter soft inside of a thin hardened skin. So a buddy snuck it in a nitriding order and the part came back badly warped. Round two was to use the S20 insert from Singer and had an arbour turned out of PH4140. Some day I will straighten the bent arbour but I don't expect to get it close to being straight.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Problem with trying to straighten case hardened parts is you must crack the hard case to effect a change in shape ( from bent to straight)
Also is the problem with using a “blank” that has a finished taper at the end
Finishing to be the needed arbor then heat treating will introduce distortion to the finished taper.
Not to mention that grinding down a larger arbor will reduce the drive keyway.
Best solution is acquisition is the real thing directly.
Failing that, making new from scratch would give best performance, but the ROI might be pretty low. And you are shooting in the dark as to the produced quality of a “one off “.

So might have a look here: https://www.wttool.com/rdx-style-a-...JFk8j8viAl7Pll-n585q503q_orVaDbBoCqcUQAvD_BwE

Would require some modification, have no idea of your capabilities, or ability, but looks like there are some choices out there.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Lots of choices here:

Horizontal Milling Machine Arbors - 30, 40, 50 NST Tapers

Choose from a variety of horizonal milling machine arbors at Victor Machinery. We have 30, 40, and 50 NST tapers plus spacers, bushings, and shims.

www.victornet.com

Lots on e-bay:

40 milling arbor for sale | eBay

Get the best deals for 40 milling arbor at eBay.com. We have a great online selection at the lowest prices with Fast & Free shipping on many items!

www.ebay.com

These are all NMTB arbors, but can be converted by cutting off the straight stub at the small end and fitting an adapter stud that will accept your draw bar.

Cheers Ross

 

[AlfaGTA]

An additional option.......
Most of the arbors i see are too long. Think you need about 8" from the shoulder at the taper end to the start of the threads for the nut.
Purchase an arbor (1") that is long. Cut off the tapered end so you have as straight shaft with the end bearing and threads for the nut along with spacers.
Purchase a good quality 1" CAT 40/BT 40 end mill holder. Then fit the straight arbor into the EM holder add a compromise draw bar stud and you are good to go....You can make the finished
arbor any length you need.
Might need to replace or machine the bushing in your over arm support to fit the inch std. arbor...all pretty easy.

CAT40 COLLIS 1" I.D. SOLID END MILL TOOL HOLDER 1.0 68078 40CV-1.0EM-3.0-PRO | eBay

68078 40CV-1.0EM-3.0-PRO. CAT40 SOLID END MILL TOOL HOLDER. Manufacturer: COLLIS. Condition: Used. YOU ARE PURCHASING THE PICTURED. SIZE & LABELING.

www.ebay.com

Cheers Ross