OT - Gun Control

[Ultradog MN]

Here is an interesting article on the matter.

Red Flag Gun Laws Set The Stage For Selective Disarmament Of Conservatives | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[DDoug]

....and add to the UK banning list:
3. Chairs
4. Fire extinguishers

Or did You all forget ?

London Bridge attack: Convicted murderer Steven Gallant 'did not hesitate' to tackle knifeman

Steven Gallant, in prison for murder, tells how he used a chair to tackle the London Bridge attacker.

www.bbc.com

 

[Trueturning]

Analysis: Democrats at the helm of 11 of the 15 deadliest cities in U.S.

A TND analysis of the 15 deadliest cities in America discovered that 11 of them are primarily run by Democrats. The National Desk (TND) looked at the party affiliations of mayors, district attorneys, sheriffs and city council members within the nation’s 15 cities which currently hold the highest...

katv.com

That said, it isn't the political PARTY, per se.

It's the POLICIES implemented BY those in power.

Dems just attract more "virtue-signalling" rascals that place cop-hating / defunding and right to "no-bail at a higher priority than having safer shiddy's.

I believe the crime springs from the people who commit the crime and who might be running things really just is hyped and when one party or another who is running things are blamed it is mostly bitter politics. I am surprised that Houston Tx. Is not on the list.
Bail reform is a fair intentioned thing really. If it was not so flawed. Perhaps the legal justice system is as incompetent without it as with it?
Crime is up and the pandemic did likely foster a increase. It can be pure demographics driving it also. Heck the boomers are still being thrown into jail now a days.
Even Facebook has a jail now.

 

[Trueturning]

.

Yes, the hundreds of extra kids that get to grow up will be a major burden on society.

Oh, wait...

Are you implying all current gun laws do not work right now? These points being brought up have validity. I feel there is likely not enough jail space to hold people who are arrested on firearms charges where a person was not shot or murdered. Many places have a hard time approving extra jail and prison space. Citizens are tired of paying for them because they always fill up quick.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

And I will add this, any terrorist killer (adult?), one who kills people he/she doesn't even know who is deemed sane, should have a simple, inexpensive PG-13 in public hanging.

I had a friend who witnessed the last head chop in France, He said if you see a guy's head chopped off you would never do that crime. I think that perpetrator killed a cop(?).

The ones we get aren’t worried about capital punishment, they expect to die. Just like the guys who flew into the twin towers.

Regards Tyrone.

 

[CalG]

I wasn't going to engage in this thread but I will say that something should be done.
Perhaps the NRA could suggest the age 21 buy rule.
The government is afraid to do anything because they are more interested in votes.
NRA members might tell the NRA that they approve of this action.
We have to figure out some way to keep guns out of the hands of these nutcase people, and still allow guns for proper use (in my opinion).

Agree that I know kids who are 10 years old who are sensible and safe with guns and would try to not do anything foolish with them, in order to not lose our gun privileges and gun rights.

*And to gun instructors, We need to tell kids and adults that we need to try to never do anything foolish with a gun to help keep our gun privileges and rights.

Buck

It concerns me that you have given up.

There are NO gun privileges. None, unless you choose to concede your human rights to another. Ultimately, the theme taken to the extreme, you surrender even the "privilege" of life to those who carry guns. THAT is a factual matter shown over and over throughout history.

I find it sad to consider.

 

[triumph406]

And I will add this, any terrorist killer (adult?), one who kills people he/she doesn't even know who is deemed sane, should have a simple, inexpensive PG-13 in public hanging.

I had a friend who witnessed the last head chop in France, He said if you see a guy's head chopped off you would never do that crime. I think that perpetrator killed a cop(?).

There are public executions in the middle east, public amputations. You'd think that would be enough to stop any type of crime in it's tracks. Apparently not.

 

[crickets]

Perhaps the NRA could suggest the age 21 buy rule.

That would be a very morally bankrupt thing to do. We already get away with denying alcohol, tobacco and drugs to persons under 21 under assumption they're not mature enough and those aren't part of any right. We already don't allow them to purchase handguns via the dealers, owing to such restriction being created before the 2008 Supreme Court ruling and alternatives being available. That is while we consider the persons under 21 to be mature enough to enlist and possibly die fighting the wars "adults" have started.

18-year-old US soldier to serve in Afghanistan 18 years after conflict began

A U.S. soldier near as old as the Afghanistan conflict girds for deployment.

abcnews.go.com

Of course in America we can get away with anything when it comes politics and legal standards. No consistency required.

Legally though this is relevant: https://www.npr.org/2022/05/11/1098432386/california-21-gun-sales-ban-unconstitutional-court-says

For those who aren't aware - a decision on the 9th Circuit level is binding for Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Washington and a couple of territories.

 

[latheman78]

On the comments about anti-depressants being a potential cause of gun related crime, I'd offer an alternative explanation.

I have suffered severe clinical depression (caused by a year of over work and lack of management support. 112 hour weeks fry your brain after a while). At the end of a year, I was in such a state that people couldn't even disagree with me over anything without me yelling and screaming at them. The effects on my family and young kids were very bad.

Once I realised that there was a problem with me, sought medical help, started taking anti-depressants and getting some talking therapy, I turned into a much nicer person. It took about 10 years to undo the damage that one year caused and I'm still on a low dose of 'happy pills' 21 years later.

The point being that the medications might not be the cause of the murderous behaviour. They might just be over represented in killers because those people needed them in the first place.

I take "happy pills" and probably have tried a dozen or two others over the course of treatment. One of them I took gave me depression symptoms. I suffer from excessive wide spread nerve pain due to a pair of spinal cord injures and a few other things. Opioids have always helped the best but they will no longer prescribe those for life long pain unless you have a terminal condition like end stage cancer.

Anyway I feel like a freaking lab rat, some of the stuff whose names I forget, I would prefer death over taking them long term. Everyone has a different reaction to medications. One of them made me withdrawn, disinterested in things I used to like,
and lazy. Fortunately I am a self employed, and no longer have employees, live alone with pets, a girlfriend a 90 minute drive away. I must admit the pills that turned me into a house plant did the best for the pain, but two weeks in I was still pretty much non functional, so I gave up on them.

I was just thinking if I turned the clock back 30 years and had 3 kids 8 and under in the house and a girlfriend, was working 60 hours a week in a large shop with no AC or heat,
while taking those pills.

I do think there is a connection between medicating people for supposed mental issues
and non gang related mass shootings. Back when school shootings were rare every other kid was not on meds. I was wound a little tight as a kid, in High School when too young to drive I rode my bike the 8 miles, then hit the weight room before first class. When old enough to drive, it was run laps, then the weight room. I had to knock the edge off so I could concentrate in class, my home brew strategy worked. Had a 3.88 GPA in High School back when 4.0 was the max.

 

[latheman78]

On the comments about anti-depressants being a potential cause of gun related crime, I'd offer an alternative explanation.

I have suffered severe clinical depression (caused by a year of over work and lack of management support. 112 hour weeks fry your brain after a while). At the end of a year, I was in such a state that people couldn't even disagree with me over anything without me yelling and screaming at them. The effects on my family and young kids were very bad.

Once I realised that there was a problem with me, sought medical help, started taking anti-depressants and getting some talking therapy, I turned into a much nicer person. It took about 10 years to undo the damage that one year caused and I'm still on a low dose of 'happy pills' 21 years later.

The point being that the medications might not be the cause of the murderous behaviour. They might just be over represented in killers because those people needed them in the first place.

I did the same thing, 112 hours could have been a short week, as I was working from a home shop. I wonder why you had lingering mental effects, and I was fine once I stopped
the abuse? I did end up in ER multiple times, fortunately I drove myself, against the wishes of the nurse health line I called. My body's rebellion was giving me heart attack symptoms, I was held and released when everything went to normal for a while. Third time was the charm, I kept seeing doctor after doctor they all were baffled, I answered all questions honestly, but did not volunteer any information. They kept saying we cannot help you if you are dishonest, once again tell us all the drugs you take, even the illegal ones. I said nothing. So Doctor # 20 who sees me tells me to be completely honest about everything I have done in the last week as in my daily routine. So I told him about 2-3 hours of sleep daily, drinking Red Bulls, coffee, caffeinated soda, and pretty much eating pizza delivery 3 meals a day.

Doctor #20 said I was no more healthy than a drug addict. Problem solved! Once I started living a healthier lifestyle, balanced diet, cut down on caffeine, and slept 4 hours +, no more weird medical issues. I think I probably had no lingering effects because I was self employed, no boss riding my ass. Happy home life, I was recently divorced, lived alone and did not get back in the dating world yet. My dog loved me and the pizza delivery man, as of course I shared the pizzas with him. Anytime a stranger showed up my German Shepard mix dog would get all excited and start drooling, so much for him being a guard dog.

 

[michiganbuck]

A Mass shooting where they have strict gun rules

Over 50 feared dead in Nigeria church attack, officials say - Netscape News

I know "what if my kid that got shot" true that would be terrible.
My point is that tight rules may not take guns from the bad guys or the crazy.
Still, some effort to keep guns out of the hands of Crazy people would be good.

 

[DDoug]

A Mass shooting where they have strict gun rules

Over 50 feared dead in Nigeria church attack, officials say - Netscape News

I know "what if my kid that got shot" true that would be terrible.
My point is that tight rules may not take guns from the bad guys or the crazy.

Yup, I see Australians are doing just GREAT! now that they have been dis-armed.
The Police are beating them on the beaches now.

 

[Scottl]

A Mass shooting where they have strict gun rules

Over 50 feared dead in Nigeria church attack, officials say - Netscape News

I know "what if my kid that got shot" true that would be terrible.
My point is that tight rules may not take guns from the bad guys or the crazy.

What tight rules do is ensure that any potential victims will be disarmed. As I said, double-minded people support the idea of Gun Free Zones but won't go as far as putting such a sign on their own property. And the strict storage rules that were supposedly passed to "protect kids"? They effectively disarm homeowners in the first critical minutes of a break in. A door can be kicked in faster than you can unlock a gun and ammo and get it ready for defense. And when seconds count, police are minutes away. An intruder can be on you in the time it takes to describe your situation to a dispatcher, and cell phones have made it worse because all 911 calls go to the State Police and you have to tell them which city's emergency dispatch to transfer your call to.

The mistake too many modern people make is thinking that because we assign some protective tasks to armed professionals (police) we somehow have given up our natural rights of self defense. One of the many lies that condition people to be subjects rather than citizens.

 

[michiganbuck]

OT
If we de gunned the police and reduced their numbers, and people who want to be safe would just stay hidden the world would be a safer place. Steel basement doors and big locks could be provided with tax credits and free money.
Food and water could be provided for free so safe people could stay hidden and would not need money.
Money seems to be the cause of many robberies, If common people were all flat broke there would be less need for robberies and guns.
The new pot rules are really working. there is so much tax on pot that the government is making a bundle, and these high prices have even increased the number of criminals in the drug business. And they often shoot each other so to keep their numbers in check, so everybody wins.
The increased number of hard drugs coming across the border, and increased deaths to overdose can reduce the population so as to put less stress on the energy grid.
We could build nice free condos for all the tent people so to get our beach parks back, and with free condos and a free income, there would be no need to live in tents.
And it is a shame that we discriminate against China by just letting South America come to the USA, most of the people in China would like to come here, and many China people are used to not having much money so gun crimes might go down.
REF: an estimated 107,622 drug overdose deaths in the United States during 2021, an increase of nearly 16,143 + 15% (likely the overdose deaths increase will soon outpace gun deaths.)
REF: 20,726 The number of gun deaths, excluding suicides, so far in 2021
2020 had 20,090.

Death Statistics - Dead or Kicking

How many deaths in United States in 2021? Check full statistics of United States deaths in 2021. Deaths charts and numbers based on gender, race, age, disease and cause of death.

deadorkicking.com

love it when a plan comes together,

 

[Scottl]

So why the huge difference of opinion on gun control?

Mainly due to one's source of "information". On the one side we have people whose only "knowledge" comes from politicians and "influencers", magazines, newspapers, TV and social media all exaggerating the "gun problem". Seen from this angle the natural solution seems to be to outlaw or at least severely restrict civilian access to guns.

On the other side are people like myself and other posters who have been involved in the shooting sports for years and realize that most restrictions hinder the law abiding far more than they do criminals, and that of the millions of guns in the USA only a very tiny portion are used for crime and an even tinier amount used to commit horrific acts such as the recent school shooting. We are also, as involved people far more aware of the uneven enforcement of existing laws. When Massachusetts passed the Bartley-Fox Law in 1975 setting a one-year mandatory minimum sentence for anyone found to be illegally carrying a firearm I was fully in support of it, thinking that it would reduce such activity. How wrong I was. An official study found very mixed results. although it reduced assault related (non planned) homicides by a notable amount it had only a minor effect on planned homicides such as gang killings and increases in nongun related armed assault and robbery offset the gun related decreases by almost a 2 to 1 ratio.

Worse yet for law-abiding citizens it was only a "first step" in a campaign to disarm ordinary citizens. While Bartley-Fox originally only applied to carrying in public and a person could still keep a handgun in their home or place of business, later laws made that a crime unless the owner had a License To Carry Firearms issued at the discretion of the local chief of police. And despite all such laws mainly affecting law-abiding citizens, certain politicians keep coming back with even more restrictive proposals.

IMPACT OF THE BARTLEY-FOX GUN LAW ON CRIME IN MASSACHUSETTS | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

 

[DDoug]

Because they are scary ?

 

[michiganbuck]

It would be good to do something to help keep guns out of the hands of crazy people.
If we do nothing then problems will continue, and we will be more likely to lose guns that are in the hands of safe people.
If we stand our ground to support No Rules then we will lose.
Drivers and hunting licenses at least help educate people on a subject.
To buy a gun cold turkey with no instruction seems wrong, and many 18-year-olds (nowadays) have wrong ideas about guns.
In Michigan, you have to take a class for concealed carry, it is no big deal and not a high expense. To have that for your first gun purchase would not be so bad.

 

[Scottl]

It would be good to do something to help keep guns out of the hands of crazy people.
If we do nothing then problems will continue, and we will be more likely to lose guns that are in the hands of safe people.
If we stand our ground to support No Rules then we will lose.

Fighting further restrictions is not "doing nothing".

Part of what is wrong is the assumption that keeping "guns out of the hands of crazy people" is the main problem. I don't believe the most recent school shooter, or most of the others going all the way back to Columbine were technically "crazy". Evil, twisted, malevolent yes, but not insane by traditional terms. But all of them showed signs of future violence. The problem was that people in authority allowed those disturbing backgrounds to be suppressed so they were later able to pass mandatory background checks. The laws we already have could drastically reduce such incidents if they were properly applied. But they are NOT, and that plus police "slow walking" responses to active shooters are two very relevant issues that are largely being ignored while the public is distracted with propaganda portraying it as a "gun problem".

 

[michiganbuck]

A good chance that 50% of the people have no use for guns, and would vote to rid all guns if problems continue. Politicians will go with the crowd just for votes.
likely only gun people and the NRA will do something, Hopefully, they will do something that supports the continued proper use of saafe guns.

 

[CalG]

Everyone despises the warrior,

until the enemy is on the doorstep.