The Haas that would not work---revisited $700,000 engine block project---Maybe not the Haas?

[empower]

Too many people just want to see those high feed rates,.. screw calculating MRR haha. IMO, I tend to stay more on the "high speed machining" side of toolpaths, but I really just my toolholders + workholding define how I go about roughing. If I have a .25 dia endmill in a 4" long holder stuck 1.25 out, milling an op20 holding the part in soft jaws, I'm not trying to take 50% stepovers lol

like you said, MRR is all that matters in the end (reliably) and that doesnt look like even medium levels of MRR in that video.
i can easily/reliably do 150-200 cubic inches/minute in either of our 5 axis machines in aluminum, coming up to ~70-80% spindle load.

 

[Mud]

There's a few seconds here of Alan Johnson making blocks in Mazaks in 2016

 

[Speedie]

Nitpicking and narrow focus doesnt seem to make millionaires very well. Or maybe there is a secret compromise

 

[William Payne]

Honestly for Steve Morris he has dedicated machines for doing line boring and cylinder boring to final sizes. I imagine this this will just pump out the blocks to a state that all the critical finish sizing will be done on other machines. I could also be completely wrong.

 

[EmGo]

Honestly for Steve Morris he has dedicated machines for doing line boring and cylinder boring to final sizes. I imagine this this will just pump out the blocks to a state that all the critical finish sizing will be done on other machines.

I wouldn't think so. Most specialized automotive equipment is designed to pick up off existing geometry. It's not all that accurate, actually. If you do the work on an nc machine then the block is in a known location and all your work is at known angles in known locations, relative to the print rather than relative to existing geometry.

Besides that, I cheated and watched the video first thing they showed was boring either the cam bearings or maybe the main bores, I forget which ... pretty sure they are planning to get the whole finished block off, all machined in one setting.

 

[Hebrewhammer8]

Would be funny to get one of these blocks and reverse it then sell them back to him as a supplier! Probably only take a few days to reverse the whole block with a cmm...

 

[EmGo]

Would be funny to get one of these blocks and reverse it then sell them back to him as a supplier! Probably only take a few days to reverse the whole block with a cmm...

I'm kind of surprised that no one has dramatically improved the design of these things. Take a look at a cosworth - it's an *old* design now yet structurally superior to all this current stuff, yet no one seems to have followed their example ? Or maybe even an awfulhouser, another interesting, ancient, stronger block design. All kinds of hero talk, not much action

 

[triumph406]

I'm kind of surprised that no one has dramatically improved the design of these things. Take a look at a cosworth - it's an *old* design now yet structurally superior to all this current stuff, yet no one seems to have followed their example ? Or maybe even an awfulhouser, another interesting, ancient, stronger block design. All kinds of hero talk, not much action

They tried and it didn't work according to a friend who was the engine builder for Kenny and Brandon Bernstein.

Everytime they tried to strengthen or improve a part something else would fail sooner. From my recollection stronger cases lead to shorter crank life. Stronger cranks lead to case failure.

In the end they were looking for something that was predictable.

 

[EmGo]

They tried and it didn't work according to a friend

I guess that shouldn't be a surprise, judging by what we're seen in this thread ...

I do remember when conventional knowledge was that suspensions don't work on dirt bikes, too .... and then someone does it

 

[empower]

I wouldn't think so. Most specialized automotive equipment is designed to pick up off existing geometry. It's not all that accurate, actually. If you do the work on an nc machine then the block is in a known location and all your work is at known angles in known locations, relative to the print rather than relative to existing geometry.

Besides that, I cheated and watched the video first thing they showed was boring either the cam bearings or maybe the main bores, I forget which ... pretty sure they are planning to get the whole finished block off, all machined in one setting.

nope, listen to what he's saying in the video, they will finish line hone the bearing journals on dedicated machines. same with sleeves, cylinders will be final bored in machines dedicated to that.
all he needs is something to indicate off of on the block to do accurate work on line hones/boring machines etc. so all critical features are cut undersize on the CNC, and finished on their respective machines.

 

[EmGo]

nope, listen to what he's saying in the video, they will finish line hone the bearing journals on dedicated machines. same with sleeves ...

That's stupid. Reinforces my opinion of these guys.

Quality engine builders do not do that.

 

[standardparts]

That's stupid. Reinforces my opinion of these guys.

Quality engine builders do not do that.

So in China are race engine shops pretty common?---Not talking ricshaw level but 600 inch, 3000 HP V8 type stuff...6 seconds/230mph...street legal(?). Ain't your old man's ricshaw........How do you say bad ass in Chinese?

 

[EmGo]

So in China are race engine shops pretty common?---Not talking ricshaw level but 600 inch, 3000 HP V8 type stuff...6 seconds/230mph...street legal. Ain't your old man's ricshaw.

Has nothing to do with china. Watching and making parts for offy, cosworth, harley, ducati, various other stuff. Seems like indy, usac, ama nationals are pretty good tests of engine work.

The people I know would certainly not do it that way.

It's also possible that

1) they don't trust the mill

2) this is their version of stress relief - rough it in the vmc then let it relax, then finish with their automotive stuff. Not what I'd want to do but could be their thinking.

The guy is just beginning to use the vmc, after all. For that reason, might be smart at this time. He's an engine builder, not a machinist, if you'll notice, so I could see him easing into things.

 

[standardparts]

Has nothing to do with china. Watching and making parts for offy, cosworth, harley, ducati, various other stuff. Seems like indy, usac, ama nationals are pretty good tests of engine work.

The people I know would certainly not do it that way.

It's also possible that

1) they don't trust the mill

2) this is their version of stress relief - rough it in the vmc then let it relax, then finish with their automotive stuff. Not what I'd want to do but could be their thinking.

The guy is just beginning to use the vmc, after all. For that reason, might be smart at this time. He's an engine builder, not a machinist, if you'll notice, so I could see him easing into things.

Easy...just pulling your chain a bit.
But actually in a round-about way best guess there is a little bit of China somewhere around that Wagon and it's engine.
I'd guess China can supply those big hunks of aluminum, and maybe they do. Most certainly much of the commodity speed equipment, finished, or in the form of castings and forgings comes from your side of the world.
The exotic low volume stuff certainly is a product of the U.S. but no doubt in my mind it could be done in China.
Maybe you should look into getting some Offy 4 bangers done...from what I hear the only guy who was doing castings is out of it.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

Man, you guys keep bringing up Offy. As I posted up-thread, those guys are a 100% manual shop. I don't even remember if all the machines had DROs. They are still welded drill jigs and drill presses. They measure accuracy with a tape measure. Check out their Instagram. I heard a rumor they might have a super old Haas VF-1 now but, they're absolutely proud of being dinosaurs.

 

[standardparts]

Man, you guys keep bringing up Offy. As I posted up-thread, those guys are a 100% manual shop. I don't even remember if all the machines had DROs. They are still welded drill jigs and drill presses. They measure accuracy with a tape measure. Check out their Instagram. I heard a rumor they might have a super old Haas VF-1 now but, they're absolutely proud of being dinosaurs.

Race engines and engine systems development at Van Dyne Engineering in Huntington Beach, CA

Race engines and engine systems development including water pumps, fuel systems and dyno at Van Dyne Engineering in Huntington Beach, CA

vandyneengineering.com

 

[William Payne]

Steve Morris has said more times than anyone can count that making horsepower is not the problem. They can all make more horsepower than the tracks and tyres can handle. All they are trying to do is keep proven engines that make power alive for longer.

He isn’t trying to reinvent the wheel. His thing is an engine that makes 3000-4500 horsepower that you can drive cross country with. That is his thing.

 

[D Nelson]

on

Did a bit of 'research' regarding 6061 billet blocks. Man, billet block been the thang for a long time now.....

First off, and you already probably know this...it's a big business. Simple search on the net...6061 aluminum billet engine block will keep a person busy for hours.
Some of it makes sense...Dart says..rolled at foundry, the aluminum into a block, identify grain(?) pattern/direction and then rough bore the crankshaft hole aligned with the grain...(must be the mark on the end of the billet in the pic)
A whole bunch of people are doing them..most do some basic machining then finish to customer spec. Predictably some of the companies produce for aerospace, military, and supply the transportation industry.
Hard to find where they source the billet from, one old post says Alcoa, but silence on supply chain usually infers import---like many things "it all comes from the same source"?
View attachment 403936

I think John Force gets his forgings from APP in California they also forge racing wheels and military stuff
Don

 

[EmGo]

Easy...just pulling your chain a bit.

Oh jeeze, what a surprise and once again, kinda fall for it. /me kinda slow, hunh ? You know the joke about the ice cream cone ?

The exotic low volume stuff certainly is a product of the U.S. but no doubt in my mind it could be done in China.
Maybe you should look into getting some Offy 4 bangers done...from what I hear the only guy who was doing castings is out of it.

It's not really that kind of a place ... which is why the US attitude drives me up the wall.

<climbs soapbox>

"Reshoring !" That's so fucking stupid. You can't buy enough dirt to put up a doghouse in nevada for under a million-five in the US, and every other cost is just as much. Fifteen dollars for a burrito at the taco truck ? Reshoring ? get serious. A half-inch close nipple at Lowes would cost fifty bucks.

But stuff like this is feasible. So instead of snivelling about commie china and reshoring and lost jobs which ain't never coming back, how about concentrating on stuff that is economically feasible in the US ? High-tech small quantity parts ? (We'll leave the fucking F22's out of this question, cuz in fact that's about the only stuff that's still big-scale viable in the US). Short runs, special items, people who have a special interest. Concentrate on what you can make a living at instead of whining about shit that's gone forever.

<gets off soapbox now>

Man, you guys keep bringing up Offy.

That's not Offy. That place is about the fifth in line to pick up the name long after Offy was a gone bye-bye contendah from auto racing. When we were playing with them (Web went to Indy 25 times ? qualified a half-dozen ?) they were the winners. They made horsepower. The design is quite good. Look at an Offy rod some time, it's beautiful.

If the real offy guys were still around, they'd be running cnc just like donovan has been doing for the past fifty years. Cosworth sure as hell isn't making stuff on bridgeports. And all the rest of these dragster guys too. The van dyne people are doing the nostalgia schtick. Nice enough people but pursuing a different niche. Kind of an upscale 'dentists with harleys and cutoffs' crowd, to be a little cruel

Just think of the basics - what's one of the main advantages to nc ? You can do everything in one chucking, so all the features stay correct relative to each other. Why the heck would you rough the forging in an nc machine then take it out and set it up twelve times in a bunch of less-accurate machines ? No sense to that.

But, in this particular case, I can imagine that he's starting from this spot and may improve his methods later.

Or maybe not

He isn’t trying to reinvent the wheel. His thing is an engine that makes 3000-4500 horsepower that you can drive cross country with.

But one of the reasons engines today are so much more reliable and last so much longer (remember the 100,000 mile datsun smile ? people would be filing suit if cars only lasted that long today) is better build quality and better design and better machining. Much better.

Up to him what he does and he's making a living at it, cool. But I couldn't help myself, there's better ways to do things. That engine is what, seventy-five years old ? And built to a price ? People have discovered a few things since then

 

[William Payne]

But one of the reasons engines today are so much more reliable and last so much longer (remember the 100,000 mile datsun smile ? people would be filing suit if cars only lasted that long today) is better build quality and better design and better machining. Much better.

Up to him what he does and he's making a living at it, cool. But I couldn't help myself, there's better ways to do things. That engine is what, seventy-five years old ? And built to a price ? People have discovered a few things since then

The other thing is you can only build what the rule book allows.